Play Errors at Large Events

[Shino'sDad]

I just hope that we get a much more clear set of rules for actual certain events that may occur in the game.

For example, during the SCG Open for Magic, in Top 4 or Top 2, one of the players misrepresented the additional power on his Tarmagoyf with a die that was set to 3, when it should have been set to 2, and his opponent thus took an additional point of damage. It was realized the next turn, but the judge actually ruled that too much time had passed and it was an irreperable change, so the 1 life was not refunded.

Now, this might not seem like that huge a deal, but there were offhand comments that the other guy was going to lose because of that 1 life. Sure enough, during the final turns of that game, his opponent was able to deal 11 damage to him exactly in one turn, no more and no less. The guy was at 11 life, and thus lost. Had he had that 1 life left from the game error, he would have won the next turn and taken the entire match. Instead, he lost that Game 3 and thus did not win the event. I'm sure Josh can elaborate on how Magic rulings go.

But the point I am making, is that how would a similar situation be handled in Naruto? If I attack and you ask me the Team Powers, and I tell them to you, and you mishear me or I miscalculate, and then when we're proccessing the Showdown, and you flip out because my Team is actually 5 higher rather than the 4 higher that you thought it was, would you try to rewind the gamestate because of false information, or would the game even be able to be rewound? What if you realized the power difference earlier, when blockers were finished being declared, does "Well I wouldn't have blocked if I knew it was actually one higher!" sufficient to a judge against the other player? Also, if a mandatory trigger is missed and it is enough to actually radically effect the game (A Hayate DaP sticking around after using his effect) would it be wrong to assume the possibility the player missed the trigger or effect on purpose in order to obtain an advantage, or if they simply forgot? How many of these 'accidental slips' could a player realistically try and get away with because of the lack of hard enforcement in the rulings?

Also, as Jason mentioned with the "Who's the user of that jutsu?", and moments where information that is mandatory isn't given at the time, allowing the opponent to technically change the state of the game by 're'choosing a new user in light of information from the other player in the form of the inital inquiry (If you have no response, why would you worry about the exact user, etc etc). Should the player who used the jutsu be given the unfair advantage of being able to select the more optimal user for the jutsu in light of the inquiry, or would it fall to the judge to pick a legal user, if no compromise can be reached.

[yodaz]

Not where I was expecting this thread to go when I made it, but I'll go along with it.

On top of what shino said, the consistency in the rulings is also completely ridiculous. By this, I mean that someone who knows what they are doing has a unfair advantage when it comes to a ruling question than those who do not. You can get away with almost anything so long as you state it ahead of time and mention that "it's both players responsibility to maintain the game state and i gave my opponent ample time to make me aware that I should have/could not do this". The burden is completely on the opponent to catch what you are doing then and there is virtually no reprimand that makes sense for the person at fault. That's some really messed up incentives. An example of this in practice, this is how I got away with the rule sharking big boy was talking about earlier. I messed up, he went "oh wait! you can't do that" while i was searching, I said the above, judge said to shuffle my deck and keep playing, and i got a warning. However, if I didn't say that, I would bet the judge would have given me a game loss.

Imo, the judges in general often do not do their due diligence in making sure they understand the situation. While its true that I should argue for my case, the judge should also be asking questions such as "did they state that they were doing xyz?" to make sure they give a fair ruling. This, as opposed to just hearing what happened and making a ruling, e.g., "I have this on my field and he searched his deck" *pause* "game loss". Most ridiculous example of this, someone I know forgot to draw off of appearance back in the day. Opponent ended their turn, he drew his card for start of turn, realized what happened, called the judge. Judge said that the game state had changed and he failed to fulfill a mandatory effect. Judge gave him a game loss for it. It made no sense what so ever. He took the ruling, shuffled his deck, went on to the next game. Now, I know some people will read that as the problem being that the ruling was too harsh. However, the real problem is that the ruling is wrong from the getgo. The game state was NOT changed from the time the ninja was put in play to when the player drew the card. Ergo, the mandatory effect should resolve, the player should draw the card, and continue as before with the start of his turn. Furthermore, when the player heard what the ruling was, he should have known that it was incorrect and argued for a lesser penalty, such as a warning and that he can't draw the card since he missed the window. In other words, this was a failure in almost every possible way. The judge failed to ascertain the situation before giving a ruling, the player failed to correct the judges understanding of the situation, the judge gave a penalty that did not make sense, and the player failed to argue against it. The only thing that did go right in this example was that the judge explained the reasoning for the penalty.

I don't mean for this to be a "judge gave me a bad ruling" thread, but in general I think the judges need to be told to ask more questions and that we as players need to be told from bandai how the rules interact with ruling questions, and what the penalties for each breach of the rules are, so that we can better argue for ourselves and know not make those mistakes ahead of time. I have been playing the game from the beginning and still do not know how missing a mandatory effect will be ruled/the penalty for it. I also have no idea in what situations my opponent not keeping track of their turn marker is actually a problem.

[HALLOFPAINALLWILLSUFFER]

Originally Posted by Shino'sDad

I had a feeling that this was going to come up. I feel that people tend to only call people on small stuff when they think they can get away with it.

For example, Never Ever try and tell a TA member that they don't have their turn marker on the proper number, because, Whoooooo, bad times.

All joking aside:

Missions go on the table and handcost is paid, Don't Touch The God Damm Mission until it resolves.

Whenever you activate an effect, make sure you speak clearly, because if you flip that card with KNS before I can announce I have a Dehydration, I will murder you.

Do not Throw BRs at me until I tell you I am proccessing that Team for Showdown.

Keep your cards above the table

Spread your chakra out so I can see what the hell is in it

I know more about the rules of this game than you, I'm sorry.

^This^
When I used to play at locals every rule you listed was broken... Dude why do you organize your chakra? Uh, so I can see what it is? lol...

[killerkimimaro]

lol i very rarely call judge, and its not because i dont have to.....in fact i should really learn to call judge more often, i remember when i was at gencon this year and 3rd round (i was 2-0) i played that dude who beat those old sannin and he used jldc whiule he had no cards in hand, of course however im an idiot and dont call judge because i was persuaded that it worked that way-_-" which ultimately led to me losing that game......................ugh

[zbkillaz]

If people send their mission along with the cost of that mission directly to their chakra and even if you say "play X mission" you are playing that mission incorrectly. The mission goes on the "open table" zone and the cost to the chakra area. I understand that players do this and it "warnable" but how many "warnings" does one get away with before enough is enough? Players should play their cards properly, there are rules and correct ways to play this game for a reason. If people are just going to avoid all of that then they mind as well just judge their own games and high events.

[soundwave187]

rule sharks=reason ppl don't wanna play anymore.
with that said, jump on me about rules and you will be buried in rules by me. i dare you to take more than 45sec to make a decision.

[zbkillaz]

Originally Posted by soundwave187

rule sharks=reason ppl don't wanna play anymore.
with that said, jump on me about rules and you will be buried in rules by me. i dare you to take more than 45sec to make a decision.

lol there are for more pressing issues, that make people not want to play this game. Also rule sharking is hardly a reason why people don't play a game (See Yu-Gi-Oh!) as for jumping on you about rules? sure why not, but how would go about that?

[Big Boy]

Originally Posted by zbkillaz

If people send their mission along with the cost of that mission directly to their chakra and even if you say "play X mission" you are playing that mission incorrectly. The mission goes on the "open table" zone and the cost to the chakra area. I understand that players do this and it "warnable" but how many "warnings" does one get away with before enough is enough? Players should play their cards properly, there are rules and correct ways to play this game for a reason. If people are just going to avoid all of that then they mind as well just judge their own games and high events.

I pretty sure i did that exact samething against you at PA everymission that i played, except for comparative strengths

[Shino'sDad]

Originally Posted by Big Boy

I pretty sure i did that exact samething against you at PA everymission that i played, except for comparative strengths

I smell contraversy!

But in reality, people say that they will call people on this stuff, when they apparently don't.

Let's worry less about "What can I get away with BSing some ruling to screw over my opponent" and more, "What happens when they actually do something that drastically changes the game"

[zbkillaz]

Originally Posted by Big Boy

I pretty sure i did that exact samething against you at PA everymission that i played, except for comparative strengths

Ive haven't been the shark i was known for back in the day, I noticed everytime but didn't say anything. I plan to go back to those days tho .