Kakashi Cup: Round 4 Rock Lee vs. Momochi Zabuza

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Dalegna

1.i already said that and he is called a tailed beast with out a tail for a reason
2.ok whats your point cuz i just said no one is as fast as lee with out his weights except for maybe Kimi and thats a big maybe and might guy 2.as you think he is getting faster he will be getting slower do to age but yes we all kno he is faster then kisame but that does not mean Kisame is slow cuz he dodge all of might guys atk with no problems and as far as i kno kisame and zabuza are at the same speed but not the same chakra and/or skill level o yea forgot about power and thats comeing from a guy holding this big heavy sword that takes training to just hold it said suigetsu

so your arguement for why zabuza would win was.......?


as to guy, that is further proof that guy was likely wearing weights. guy is a 5/5 speed. zabuza/kisame is 4. a person with 4 speed would have a hard time dodging the attacks of someone with a 5 ( a 1 point difference is massive) if they were going all out. point blank: if kisame was dodging guy, he wasn't at full speed. as for age, really? he's the same age as kakashi (under 30) and btw age doesn't slow people down or make them weaker unless they let it. I've seen an 88yr old man that can curl/lift/benchpress several hundred pounds. age has nothing to do with it.


(and fyi speed wise: kimi matches shippuden lee point for point...and that's the stats he had against naruto, not even his HEALTHY stats. no maybe about it. also, itachi is 5/5 in speed so you forgot him. shippuden neji is also a match for shippuden lee in speed. there are plenty who can handle him. zabuza just isn't one of them.)

[Sharingan_Warrior5693]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

1. No more so than zabuza. zabuza cannot see in the mist better than anyone who is fighting him. heck, kakashi dodged an attack that came from behind him at near point blank, and lee is faster than kakashi. his only asset with the mist is that he has excellent hearing. HOWEVER, I can breath deeply without making so much as a sound, and I'm dead certain a trained ninja can as well. as for hearing a heartbeat, that's not even feasable. even when you are exhausted, you usually can't even hear your own heartbeat. you can FEEL it, but not hear it. that is the sole reason for stethoscopes.

lee with NO gates is jonin strength. lee with 1-2 gates is near hokage. lee is a 4.5/5 using a very low amount of his capacity (what with limits on the brain). with the first gate open, those limits are removed.
.

1. Sure, you must be right. Even if many Jonin were killed by Zabuza while he used the Mist technique, I'm sure Lee could avoid making sounds, even though those more elite ninja couldn't. If the mist was as bad as you are making it out to be, then Zabua wouldn't be an A ranked criminal today.

2. There is no way that 2 gates makes Lee Kage level.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Sharingan_Warrior5693

1. Sure, you must be right. Even if many Jonin were killed by Zabuza while he used the Mist technique, I'm sure Lee could avoid making sounds, even though those more elite ninja couldn't. If the mist was as bad as you are making it out to be, then Zabua wouldn't be an A ranked criminal today.

2. There is no way that 2 gates makes Lee Kage level.

1. filler ninja aren't very powerful. those 'jonin' that he killed were likely about as skilled as a weak leaf chunin, like iruka. leaf shinobi are VASTLY more powerful than most.

and like I said. EVEN I can breath without making sound. lee definately can. the mist is bad when he's near water, which he is in this fight. chapter 26, page 10 AND I QUOTE KAKASHI "THIS MIST IS TOO THICK. ZABUZA SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING EITHER."

Zabuza and lee can see EQUALLY well in the mist. sound is the only variable.

granted, that's if he's near the water when he uses it. if the pond were to not be enough water, it would just be the first fight between kakashi and zabuza all over again. as far as physical combat goes, lee far exceeds that of kakashi when kakashi first fought zabuza, and kakashi was able to dodge zabuza. stamina wise (I think) they are about tied or lee is higher by a little bit (than kakashi, not zabuza. IIRC zabuza is a 4 in stamina, however hidden mist is said to take a lot of chakra, kakashi's words, and IF zabuza is indeed 4 instamina, then from what we already know of gaara and the fact that the armor also takes 'a lot' of chakra, theoretically those jutsu take roughly the same amount of chakra since they are both constant jutsu, he can do the mist for about as long as gaara can use armor in the chunin exams.)

Lee also knows about water prison, unlike kakashi, so that's not even going to happen.

2. are you sure about that? genin lee at 3 gates was above kage level (his speed alone was at least 1.5x might guy's speed at that point). this is chunin lee (there is very little difference, overall power-wise, between him and guy at this point), so I doubt that 2 gates wouldn't be enough. let's say that the normal limit on the body is 20% capacity (don't know the actual limit off-hand), if he releases the 1st gate, he can now use 100% capacity, making himself theoretically 500% faster/stronger. even though I doubt in actuality it is quite that high, he's at least 1.5x speed, with just gate 1 opened. 2nd gate gives a stamina boost (words of might guy). therefore, he could maintain his increased speed for longer.

look at it this way. kakashi, with no gates, is near kage level, barely below. guy is above kakashi in terms of combat ability. Guy with 1 gate, therefore, WOULD be kage level. lee is not much below guy, so for him, 2 should be enough. granted this is all theoretical anyway, but that's how I see it.

[Dalegna]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

1. filler ninja aren't very powerful. those 'jonin' that he killed were likely about as skilled as a weak leaf chunin, like iruka. leaf shinobi are VASTLY more powerful than most.

and like I said. EVEN I can breath without making sound. lee definately can. the mist is bad when he's near water, which he is in this fight. chapter 26, page 10 AND I QUOTE KAKASHI "THIS MIST IS TOO THICK. ZABUZA SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING EITHER."

Zabuza and lee can see EQUALLY well in the mist. sound is the only variable.

granted, that's if he's near the water when he uses it. if the pond were to not be enough water, it would just be the first fight between kakashi and zabuza all over again. as far as physical combat goes, lee far exceeds that of kakashi when kakashi first fought zabuza, and kakashi was able to dodge zabuza. stamina wise (I think) they are about tied or lee is higher by a little bit (than kakashi, not zabuza. IIRC zabuza is a 4 in stamina, however hidden mist is said to take a lot of chakra, kakashi's words, and IF zabuza is indeed 4 instamina, then from what we already know of gaara and the fact that the armor also takes 'a lot' of chakra, theoretically those jutsu take roughly the same amount of chakra since they are both constant jutsu, he can do the mist for about as long as gaara can use armor in the chunin exams.)

Lee also knows about water prison, unlike kakashi, so that's not even going to happen.

2. are you sure about that? genin lee at 3 gates was above kage level (his speed alone was at least 1.5x might guy's speed at that point). this is chunin lee (there is very little difference, overall power-wise, between him and guy at this point), so I doubt that 2 gates wouldn't be enough. let's say that the normal limit on the body is 20% capacity (don't know the actual limit off-hand), if he releases the 1st gate, he can now use 100% capacity, making himself theoretically 500% faster/stronger. even though I doubt in actuality it is quite that high, he's at least 1.5x speed, with just gate 1 opened. 2nd gate gives a stamina boost (words of might guy). therefore, he could maintain his increased speed for longer.

look at it this way. kakashi, with no gates, is near kage level, barely below. guy is above kakashi in terms of combat ability. Guy with 1 gate, therefore, WOULD be kage level. lee is not much below guy, so for him, 2 should be enough. granted this is all theoretical anyway, but that's how I see it.

so where do you get your facts from how is might guy above kakshi with just 1 gate do to the fact kakashi eye will warp this fool to a new world.
like do you think zabuza will sand and watch lee opens gates lol like kisame did no he will take any chance cuz he is elite and dont care about useing cheap tactics

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Dalegna

so where do you get your facts from how is might guy above kakshi with just 1 gate do to the fact kakashi eye will warp this fool to a new world.
like do you think zabuza will sand and watch lee opens gates lol like kisame did no he will take any chance cuz he is elite and dont care about useing cheap tactics

dude, where have you been? did you miss the fact entirely that kakashi can't hit a moving target with kamui very well, and that using it once or twice takes almost all of his chakra? kamui would not hit guy even without gates.

guy has ALWAYS been above kakashi's level. he can beat him in a fight without gates. I get that from both the manga and the databooks. kakashi has low strength, low stamina, and his genjutsu is worthless against guy. he's also slower than guy, and roughly equal in battle analysis skill. he doesn't have 1 significant stat advantage over guy. guy is called the Noble blue beast of the leaf for a reason. he's the single most powerful jonin in the manga (minus jinchuriki like bee), without gates. WITH GATES there is literally NO ONE who can beat him. Guy is on an even plane, if not higher, than itachi. (pre-shippuden, when he was healthy)

as for zabuza vs lee, even with no gates, lee out classes zabuza in speed and taijutsu, with 1 gate zabuza can't even touch him. and lee can open the first gate and possibly even the second by the time zabuza's mist is even up and running. the mist isnt' instant,fast yes, but not instant, and it is heavily taxing on zabuza's chakra. not to mention, as has been stated, it doesn't affect the outcome of the fight much.

[Nickuchiha]

In the past when we saw Zabuza using the mist, it didn't seem to affect his chakra all that much.

I think the biggest factor here is that we have seen Lee fight alot more than we got to see Zabuza. We have seen Lee fight multiple opponents, who use various jutsu styles. Zabuza only got to fight Kakashi.

Further more, if Guy is so great, why was he not considered for Hokage all the times Kakashi was. I am sorry, but Kakashi is far greater than Guy. He has a varity of jutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu and even tai. Further more, his Sharingan would allow him to keep track of Guy or Lee's movements, nongates, with out a problem. He can use Shadow clones and lightning clones, plus he has his earth movement jutsu.

But I digress. I think Lee is far too foward in his tactics. The longer the gates are used, the worse it gets for the user. If Lee goes to go Gates, that gives Zabuza time to set up a mist, even just using the water in the air, in which he can hide. Then all he has to do it wait out Lee. And Lee can try to go bouncing through the mist all wild to try to hit Zabuza, but that'd be foolish being all Zabuza would have to do is thrust a kunai, or his sword.

But Lee isn't an idiot....not completely. He'd have to calm down and settle back, and hope Zabuza made a noise. But, Zabuza was a master at Silent Killing.(twas stated)

For the simple fact that Lee only has taijutsu and Zabuza can use multiple types of ninjutsu, and is not just a one trick pony, even if his jutsu are mostly water based, I have to give this to Zabuza.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Nickuchiha

In the past when we saw Zabuza using the mist, it didn't seem to affect his chakra all that much.
I think the biggest factor here is that we have seen Lee fight alot more than we got to see Zabuza. We have seen Lee fight multiple opponents, who use various jutsu styles. Zabuza only got to fight Kakashi.

Further more, if Guy is so great, why was he not considered for Hokage all the times Kakashi was.

I am sorry, but Kakashi is far greater than Guy. He has a varity of jutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu and even tai. Further more, his Sharingan would allow him to keep track of Guy or Lee's movements, nongates, with out a problem. He can use Shadow clones and lightning clones, plus he has his earth movement jutsu.

But I digress. I think Lee is far too foward in his tactics. The longer the gates are used, the worse it gets for the user. If Lee goes to go Gates, that gives Zabuza time to set up a mist, even just using the water in the air, in which he can hide. Then all he has to do it wait out Lee. And Lee can try to go bouncing through the mist all wild to try to hit Zabuza, but that'd be foolish being all Zabuza would have to do is thrust a kunai, or his sword.

But Lee isn't an idiot....not completely. He'd have to calm down and settle back, and hope Zabuza made a noise. But, Zabuza was a master at Silent Killing.(twas stated)

For the simple fact that Lee only has taijutsu and Zabuza can use multiple types of ninjutsu, and is not just a one trick pony, even if his jutsu are mostly water based, I have to give this to Zabuza.

1. to be fair his fights were both over in just a couple minutes at most.

2. Because guy doesn't have the raw intelligence neccesary to keep up the polotics with other nations. that was obvious. Being hokage is not simply a power requirement. it's a political game. why do you think Jiraiya didn't want to be hokage? he didn't want to bother with the polotics and paper work. Jiraiya was easily stronger than hiruzen, by far even, but that alone didn't make him hokage.

3. A: versatility doesn't even remotely factor into 'best' or not. B: guy has been stated to be able to beat kakashi in battle. what more evidence do you need? C: without a problem? really? I hear that for someone who is a 4 (possibly 4.5 in shippuden I don't remember) in speed, it's still hard to keep up with someone who is BEYOND 5. it's not like there is only a .5 difference between them. at minimum there is a full point. and I paraphrase rock lee "just because you can see it coming doesn't mean you can stop it".

4. lee isn't stupid. he's not going to use gates until he has to for the same reason naruto wouldn't start a battle in tailed mode. lee, with no gates, has speed on zabuza. with 1 gate zabuza can't even touch him. even point blank he can dodge zabuza without gates (kakashi did while in the mist with a 4 speed. lee is 4.5 and better at taijutsu than kakashi was)

[Nickuchiha]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

1. to be fair his fights were both over in just a couple minutes at most.

2. Because guy doesn't have the raw intelligence neccesary to keep up the polotics with other nations. that was obvious. Being hokage is not simply a power requirement. it's a political game. why do you think Jiraiya didn't want to be hokage? he didn't want to bother with the polotics and paper work. Jiraiya was easily stronger than hiruzen, by far even, but that alone didn't make him hokage.

3. A: versatility doesn't even remotely factor into 'best' or not. B: guy has been stated to be able to beat kakashi in battle. what more evidence do you need? C: without a problem? really? I hear that for someone who is a 4 (possibly 4.5 in shippuden I don't remember) in speed, it's still hard to keep up with someone who is BEYOND 5. it's not like there is only a .5 difference between them. at minimum there is a full point. and I paraphrase rock lee "just because you can see it coming doesn't mean you can stop it".

4. lee isn't stupid. he's not going to use gates until he has to for the same reason naruto wouldn't start a battle in tailed mode. lee, with no gates, has speed on zabuza. with 1 gate zabuza can't even touch him. even point blank he can dodge zabuza without gates (kakashi did while in the mist with a 4 speed. lee is 4.5 and better at taijutsu than kakashi was)

In a fight, between two people who are near equally matched, a simple mistake, or sudden swing of whatever can quickly end that fight. Thus was the case with Kakashi and Zabuza.

Where was it stated that Guy can beat Kakashi. Manga chapter and page please.

Also, versatility definately factors into "best." When you are fighting someone, and you get into it, and all of a sudden, the change something up on you, it throws you off balance very quickly. A lightning clone sent in to attack Guy=a paralyzed Guy.

And, Zabuza actually tried a coup against the Mizukage. And from what we have seen in shippuden, some of the gaurds are extremely powerful. Yes his attempt failed, but to be able to get away, after that, and probably taking out a number of powerful mist ninja, and then escaping the capture from others, he is probably alot more skilled than what we got to see.

I just don't think Lee can take out such a guy.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Nickuchiha

In a fight, between two people who are near equally matched, a simple mistake, or sudden swing of whatever can quickly end that fight. Thus was the case with Kakashi and Zabuza.

Where was it stated that Guy can beat Kakashi. Manga chapter and page please.
Also, versatility definately factors into "best." When you are fighting someone, and you get into it, and all of a sudden, the change something up on you, it throws you off balance very quickly. A lightning clone sent in to attack Guy=a paralyzed Guy.And, Zabuza actually tried a coup against the Mizukage. And from what we have seen in shippuden, some of the gaurds are extremely powerful. Yes his attempt failed, but to be able to get away, after that, and probably taking out a number of powerful mist ninja, and then escaping the capture from others, he is probably alot more skilled than what we got to see.I just don't think Lee can take out such a guy.

1. I'll find it later. don't exactly have time atm.

2. yeeeeeaaaahNO. a lightning clone would not paralyze guy, if guy were to attack the clone he would punch through the chakra, and yeah, it would hurt, but it's not the same as being hit with chidori or anything. The reason it did so much damage to pain is becaus that body was part metal. he'd still be able to fight. and that's without gates. with even 1 gate, guy woudln't be taking hits period. also, kakashi can only do 4 chidoris in a full day, and those aren't big. a full sized person (lightning clone) would take more than half of his chakra easily.

3. and yet the stats say otherwise. Zabuza is on a relatively even plane with kakashi (had naruto not been there kakashi would be dead right now), but since this fight comes down almost purely to taijutsu combat, I give it to lee.

[Hikari Link]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

1. I'll find it later. don't exactly have time atm.

2. yeeeeeaaaahNO. a lightning clone would not paralyze guy, if guy were to attack the clone he would punch through the chakra, and yeah, it would hurt, but it's not the same as being hit with chidori or anything. The reason it did so much damage to pain is becaus that body was part metal. he'd still be able to fight. and that's without gates. with even 1 gate, guy woudln't be taking hits period. also, kakashi can only do 4 chidoris in a full day, and those aren't big. a full sized person (lightning clone) would take more than half of his chakra easily.

3. and yet the stats say otherwise. Zabuza is on a relatively even plane with kakashi (had naruto not been there kakashi would be dead right now), but since this fight comes down almost purely to taijutsu combat, I give it to lee.

1. As much as it hardly seems relevant to this conversation, I'd also like to see that.

2. That's arguable, but I must ask again, what does that have to do with this discussion?

3. There is no reason this fight would come down to just taijutsu. Zabuza can use Water Clones to keep himself safe during combat and in conjunction with his Hidden Mist, it would be all to easy to find and take out Lee with little to no personal risk. If he and one or more clones are working at t, even if they can't see, they can still find Lee eventually and flush him out.