Kakashi Cup: Round 4 Rock Lee vs. Momochi Zabuza

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by hahonryuu

how would you know? but yes, he's a 4.5



he most certainly can...but it would sure be a shame if something happened to where he couldn't see his target. be a bigger shame if the target he worked hard to find in that blindness turned into water on impact...the gates are his key to winning, but if he just uses them willy nilly he's screwed



since when has zabuza fought without the mist?



sounds pretty made up to me



first 2 gates? we've only seen him open gate 1 in motion...techically 5 as well but it seemed more like he was sitting still in the air. wait that came out wrong >_> that made it sound like lee was totally immobile in mid air. umm he wasn't moving himself, but he was still moving from the momentum he already had...he was falling after all. oh, you know what i mean. i think you are remembering wrong. when he started moving again against gaara, he had already opening it up



yes, if zabuza gets hit by the big lotus he would be finished. but this fight isn't going to be as simple as "lee opens the gates, he wins" since zabuza is practically guaranteed to start off with hidden mist jutsu. lee wont be able to see very well so using the gates is super risky since a miss will easily cost him the fight, and his life. he has to find a way to find zabuza. and even then he has to be sure its not a water clone

its not that lee can't win, im not arguing that at all. im not even saying im in favor of zabuza winning. but you are seriously making this out to be way easier than it really would be

1. because you told me that before and I have a good memory. same reason I know naruto is 3 in strength and hiruzen is 3 in speed and haku is 4 in intelligence and neji is 2.5 in strength etc.

2. yeah, cuz getting out of the mist is SO hard/sarcasm. kakashi is slower than lee, and he was able to get out of it pretty quick. the mist doesn't cover THAT big of an area. and as far as we know it's not manipulatable, it's a set area, so saying he can cover the whole area with the mist is invalid.

3. he doesn't need gates to beat zabuza.

4. zabuza didn't use mist when he fought kakashi the first time. and that was against a ninja he already knew to be good. he's never seen lee fight, or heard of him in the slightest. even though he can deduce that he is primarily a taijutsu fighter from the fact that he wouldn't be informed of lee's 'jutsu', he doesn't know what style of taijutsu lee uses, nor does he know how fast he is. odds are he would underestimate him. you have to realize that personality is still a factor in these fights. zabuza is arrogant and proud.

5. at 3 gates he was shattering pieces of the floor. at 4+ it's exponentially worse/more powerful. also, the fact that lee is stronger/faster in general would amplify the effect of the gates.

6. ok. TECHNICALLY he opened the heal gate while up against the wall, but you get what I meant. the point was it doesn't take him more than a second or two to open the 2nd gate, even if he is still.


point is. even if zabuza uses mist, lee will know where he was when he used it, because he can see him when he uses it. as long as lee runs in any direction other than the one zabuza was at, he can outrun zabuza until he's out of the mist. Besides, zabuza can't see in the mist either, so as long as lee doesn't make sound, he can't find lee anyway. lee doesn't need gates to win. and as far as we know, opening the first 2 gates doesn't even make noise.

[Dalegna]

lol Zabuza wins i dont care what anyone says he is the best in the world lol Naw dont gun me down i was just J/K

[Sharingan_Warrior5693]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

2. yeah, cuz getting out of the mist is SO hard/sarcasm. kakashi is slower than lee, and he was able to get out of it pretty quick. the mist doesn't cover THAT big of an area. and as far as we know it's not manipulatable, it's a set area, so saying he can cover the whole area with the mist is invalid.

3. he doesn't need gates to beat zabuza.

4. zabuza didn't use mist when he fought kakashi the first time. and that was against a ninja he already knew to be good. he's never seen lee fight, or heard of him in the slightest. even though he can deduce that he is primarily a taijutsu fighter from the fact that he wouldn't be informed of lee's 'jutsu', he doesn't know what style of taijutsu lee uses, nor does he know how fast he is. odds are he would underestimate him. you have to realize that personality is still a factor in these fights. zabuza is arrogant and proud.

point is. even if zabuza uses mist, lee will know where he was when he used it, because he can see him when he uses it. as long as lee runs in any direction other than the one zabuza was at, he can outrun zabuza until he's out of the mist. Besides, zabuza can't see in the mist either, so as long as lee doesn't make sound, he can't find lee anyway. lee doesn't need gates to win. and as far as we know, opening the first 2 gates doesn't even make noise.

2. I heard running off blindly when there is a trained assassin with a giant sword lurking somewhere and you can't find him is hella pro.

3. Lies, all of it.

4. Please read chapter 12, page 9, last panel. Also, Zabuza may underestimate him, but you are missing the "fully motivated to win" part. Zabuza would have no problem going in for the kill right away.

5. Zabuza doesn't need to see in order to kill. He finds you using the slightest sounds. Breathing, or even a heart-beat.

[hahonryuu]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

2. yeah, cuz getting out of the mist is SO hard/sarcasm. kakashi is slower than lee, and he was able to get out of it pretty quick.

when 0_o. they were in the mist the whole time

Originally Posted by Nejifan

the mist doesn't cover THAT big of an area.

seemed pretty big to me =/

Originally Posted by Nejifan

and as far as we know it's not manipulatable, it's a set area, so saying he can cover the whole area with the mist is invalid.

please don't act like you can predict what im going to argue, you weren't even close. aside the fact that i don't think covering the area with would be any harder than making a hand sign and saying "hidden mist jutsu" <aka, im saying that it probably would cover the "arena" they are fighting in>, even if it didn't cover the fighting area, which seems kinda doubtful, whats to stop him from moving backwards a little bit and doing the jutsu again to cover a larger area

Originally Posted by Nejifan

3. he doesn't need gates to beat zabuza.

seems rather debatable. lee will be fighting blind

Originally Posted by Nejifan

4. zabuza didn't use mist when he fought kakashi the first time.

that's bigger BS than claiming sharingan can't see chakra threads <why you would even put "sharingan" and "can't see chakra" int he same sentence baffles me>. chapter 12, page 9, last panel "hidden mist jutsu!". thats their first encounter. should really cut back on the drugs dude, its screwing with your clearly selective memory

Originally Posted by Nejifan

and that was against a ninja he already knew to be good. he's never seen lee fight, or heard of him in the slightest. even though he can deduce that he is primarily a taijutsu fighter from the fact that he wouldn't be informed of lee's 'jutsu', he doesn't know what style of taijutsu lee uses, nor does he know how fast he is. odds are he would underestimate him. you have to realize that personality is still a factor in these fights. zabuza is arrogant and proud.

you are REALLY going to argue that zabuza will not use his signature attack. especially when whats on the line <for him, most likely> is bringing haku back to life. really? what next? will naruto not use SCJ? ooh ooh, will sharingan kakashi not use his sharingan? i bet kisame wouldn't use samehada. or perhaps jiraiya wont summon a toad.

i agree the dude is arrogant. it almost caused naruto to land a kunai in the back of his head. but from what we've seen, he doesn't "save" hidden mist jutsu. its his start, not his finish. we've only really seen him fight twice, and both times the opening move was hidden mist jutsu. he very well might underestimate lee at first, and that will probably cause a "konoha senpuu!" to land when it otherwise wouldn't. but make no mistake, this fight will get very misty right off. and also to be fair, naruto was a genin, a 12 year old at that. lee is older and has that fancy schmancy chuunin vest. surely he'll still think himself better, but he will on some level know that lee is capable on some level.

now, instead of making some bogus argument about how zabuza wont use hidden mist jutsu, why don't you do something productive, like come up with a way for lee to be able to fight without him being able to see zabuza.

Originally Posted by Nejifan

5. at 3 gates he was shattering pieces of the floor. at 4+ it's exponentially worse/more powerful. also, the fact that lee is stronger/faster in general would amplify the effect of the gates.

your point?

Originally Posted by Nejifan

6. ok. TECHNICALLY he opened the heal gate while up against the wall, but you get what I meant. the point was it doesn't take him more than a second or two to open the 2nd gate, even if he is still.

actually i don't, because you said he could open two of them while moving, if he "technically" did it while relatively still, then that was obviously wrong. and after statements such as "he didn't use hidden mist jutsu in his first encounter with kakashi", well, im not sure i will ever know what you mean.

and we don't know for sure how long lee was opening the second gate. it may have taken that entire time gaara was beating him. but sure, a few seconds sounds pretty reasonable. that's about how long the first and 5th gates apparently take to open <yet for some reason 3 and 4 appear to take a bit longer>. basically seems to take about as much time as it takes to say it, give or take a couple seconds. so even though he never said "gate 2, heal gate, open!"

Originally Posted by Nejifan

point is. even if zabuza uses mist, lee will know where he was when he used it, because he can see him when he uses it. as long as lee runs in any direction other than the one zabuza was at, he can outrun zabuza until he's out of the mist.

but nejifan, he can't escape the arena ^_~

Originally Posted by Nejifan

Besides, zabuza can't see in the mist either, so as long as lee doesn't make sound, he can't find lee anyway. lee doesn't need gates to win. and as far as we know, opening the first 2 gates doesn't even make noise.

...now your saying that zabuza will have trouble finding lee in the mist? really?

thats it. do what you want, say what you want. im done with both these threads

[Sheep+Goat=GEEP]

Lets not forget lee is a master of the drunken fist...as much as i like zabuza, lee would destroy him, he has weights, 8 gates, and drunken fist. He's way to fast for zabuza even with the mist.

[Nickuchiha]

Originally Posted by Sheep+Goat=GEEP

Lets not forget lee is a master of the drunken fist...as much as i like zabuza, lee would destroy him, he has weights, 8 gates, and drunken fist. He's way to fast for zabuza even with the mist.

Zabuza is pretty fast himself. Plus, Lee would need to take some alcohol to be effective in his "Drunken Fist." And that was not something he has ever done willingly/knowingly.(real manga and movie)

Zabuza was absolutely no slouch. He was a Jonin for a reason. The only reason for his downfall was really that he went up against Kakashi. A man who was recently, temporarily made, Hokage. Even pretime skip, he was considered for the job.

I definately have to give this one to Zabuza.

[Sheep+Goat=GEEP]

Originally Posted by Nickuchiha

Zabuza is pretty fast himself. Plus, Lee would need to take some alcohol to be effective in his "Drunken Fist." And that was not something he has ever done willingly/knowingly.(real manga and movie)

Zabuza was absolutely no slouch. He was a Jonin for a reason. The only reason for his downfall was really that he went up against Kakashi. A man who was recently, temporarily made, Hokage. Even pretime skip, he was considered for the job.

I definately have to give this one to Zabuza.

well no zabuza isnt a slouch but from what we've seen from him he couldnt keep up with lee. they said that opening all 8 gates gives you powers beyond a hokage. so with opening 5 you would easily be just a strong as a jonin if not stronger. Plus rock lee in this fight is a chunin rank now (im pretty sure) so im sure with all his new techniques and still being able to open the gates he would take zabuza out no problem

[Dalegna]

im sorry but from what i can tell kisame almost killed Neji, TenTen, and Rock Lee with just a water prison whats stoping zabuza from doing the same? and his hidden mist jutsu can cover the hole area if he fights near water it was said and the mist become even more thick thats why shaningan was useless and kakashi had to summon dogz to smell his blood out since he let zabuza cut him with the kunai also zabuza can control water clone jutsu and can keep up with rock lee speed until weights are droped then almost no one but kimi and keep up lol how do i kno he can keep up with rock lee cuz zabuza and kisame have the same speed and kisame was keeping up with guy only thing is kisame is brute. now im not saying zabuza will win this fight but dont be fooled he aint no punk rank rookie who will take the noble green beats apprentice as a joke since Might Guy is in the bingo book and we all kno zabuza love the bingo book so its fair to say water prison can be a ace in the hole in this fight and can really play a big role in this fight

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by hahonryuu

seems rather debatable. lee will be fighting blind


that's bigger BS than claiming sharingan can't see chakra threads <why you would even put "sharingan" and "can't see chakra" int he same sentence baffles me>. chapter 12, page 9, last panel "hidden mist jutsu!". thats their first encounter. should really cut back on the drugs dude, its screwing with your clearly selective memory


you are REALLY going to argue that zabuza will not use his signature attack. especially when whats on the line <for him, most likely> is bringing haku back to life. really? what next? will naruto not use SCJ? ooh ooh, will sharingan kakashi not use his sharingan? i bet kisame wouldn't use samehada. or perhaps jiraiya wont summon a toad.

i agree the dude is arrogant. it almost caused naruto to land a kunai in the back of his head. but from what we've seen, he doesn't "save" hidden mist jutsu. its his start, not his finish. we've only really seen him fight twice, and both times the opening move was hidden mist jutsu. he very well might underestimate lee at first, and that will probably cause a "konoha senpuu!" to land when it otherwise wouldn't. but make no mistake, this fight will get very misty right off. and also to be fair, naruto was a genin, a 12 year old at that. lee is older and has that fancy schmancy chuunin vest. surely he'll still think himself better, but he will on some level know that lee is capable on some level.

now, instead of making some bogus argument about how zabuza wont use hidden mist jutsu, why don't you do something productive, like come up with a way for lee to be able to fight without him being able to see zabuza.


...now your saying that zabuza will have trouble finding lee in the mist? really?

1. No more so than zabuza. zabuza cannot see in the mist better than anyone who is fighting him. heck, kakashi dodged an attack that came from behind him at near point blank, and lee is faster than kakashi. his only asset with the mist is that he has excellent hearing. HOWEVER, I can breath deeply without making so much as a sound, and I'm dead certain a trained ninja can as well. as for hearing a heartbeat, that's not even feasable. even when you are exhausted, you usually can't even hear your own heartbeat. you can FEEL it, but not hear it. that is the sole reason for stethoscopes.

2. I didn't say sharingan couldn't, I said I was not aware that it could, especially since that is the ONLY thing byakugan has except for the 360 vision, which apparently is now the ONLY difference between the two, even though it was clearly stated that 'for power of insight, the byakugan is the better of the two'. if sharingan can see chakra, then byakugan is not better than sharingan in terms of insight.

also, I didn't remember him using hidden mist jutsu against kakashi, since kakashi was able to SEE AND MIRROR zabuza, which isn't possible in the mist. the mist is ridiculous thick, so much so that you can't see 5 feet in front of you (Obviously I don't know the exact distance, that was an exageration to reinforce that the mist is thick. at least when he was at the bridge. the first time it wasn't even hard to see through. I mean you can still see the environment around them for 10-20 feet in chapter 12). as for my comment about kakashi leaving the mist, he was able to get out of it to protect tazuna. (btw this has nothing to do with anything but I was just thinking. does anyone else find it odd that sasuke can keep up with a 4 speed haku with no sharingan whatsoever, but with 2 tomoe he can't even keep up with lee's roughly 2.5 with weights on? Other thing that bugs me is the fact that kakashi says 'If I make a kage bunshin, he'll just stop me with his water bunshin. I'll just waste chakra'....considering that suiton bunshin is 10% of normal strength, and kage bunshin is 100% of normal strength, a kage bunshin of kakashi should be able to handle MULTIPLE water clone zabuzas, especially since sasuke did it....without sharingan...)

3. when did I say that? I don't recall ever saying he wouldn't use the mists.

4. already did that. if lee doesn't move, zabuza will not be able to find him by sound. (fyi the gates don't make sound to open them (far as we know) until gate 3, which would likely negate zabuza's attack, since at that point lee can dodge attacks point blank. heck, for all we know zabuza doesn't even KNOW about the gates) zabuza's hearing is good, but it's not superhuman good.

5. considering Zabuza can't see better in the mist than lee can, and that lee wont be making unnecessary noise, yeah, I'm going to say the mist isn't going to seal it for zabuza...

Originally Posted by Sheep+Goat=GEEP

well no zabuza isnt a slouch but from what we've seen from him he couldnt keep up with lee. they said that opening all 8 gates gives you powers beyond a hokage. so with opening 5 you would easily be just a strong as a jonin if not stronger. Plus rock lee in this fight is a chunin rank now (im pretty sure) so im sure with all his new techniques and still being able to open the gates he would take zabuza out no problem

lee with NO gates is jonin strength. lee with 1-2 gates is near hokage. lee is a 4.5/5 using a very low amount of his capacity (what with limits on the brain). with the first gate open, those limits are removed.

Originally Posted by Dalegna

im sorry but from what i can tell kisame almost killed Neji, TenTen, and Rock Lee with just a water prison whats stoping zabuza from doing the same? and his hidden mist jutsu can cover the hole area if he fights near water it was said and the mist become even more thick thats why shaningan was useless and kakashi had to summon dogz to smell his blood out since he let zabuza cut him with the kunai also zabuza can control water clone jutsu and can keep up with rock lee speed until weights are droped then almost no one but kimi and keep up lol how do i kno he can keep up with rock lee cuz zabuza and kisame have the same speed and kisame was keeping up with guy only thing is kisame is brute. now im not saying zabuza will win this fight but dont be fooled he aint no punk rank rookie who will take the noble green beats apprentice as a joke since Might Guy is in the bingo book and we all kno zabuza love the bingo book so its fair to say water prison can be a ace in the hole in this fight and can really play a big role in this fight

1. zabuza is not even HALF as powerful as kisame.
2. lee stars with weights already dropped.
3. I would dang near guarantee that guy was wearing weights. There is no reason he would apply a different training method to lee than to himself. guy is one of those ninja who is constantly getting faster and stronger, because he never stops training.

[Dalegna]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

1. zabuza is not even HALF as powerful as kisame.
2. lee stars with weights already dropped.
3. I would dang near guarantee that guy was wearing weights. There is no reason he would apply a different training method to lee than to himself. guy is one of those ninja who is constantly getting faster and stronger, because he never stops training.

1.i already said that and he is called a tailed beast with out a tail for a reason
2.ok whats your point cuz i just said no one is as fast as lee with out his weights except for maybe Kimi and thats a big maybe and might guy
2.as you think he is getting faster he will be getting slower do to age but yes we all kno he is faster then kisame but that does not mean Kisame is slow cuz he dodge all of might guys atk with no problems and as far as i kno kisame and zabuza are at the same speed but not the same chakra and/or skill level o yea forgot about power and thats comeing from a guy holding this big heavy sword that takes training to just hold it said suigetsu