Naruto Cup: Round 8 Hyuuga Neji vs. Rock Lee

[hahonryuu]

Originally Posted by spiralblitz

Um, Lee is definitely faster but neiji.

maybe so, but he's not faster than neji. try to stay on topic ^_~

whats the matter with you people? why is lee's 4 in speed > neji's 4 in speed? unweighted and ungated, they are statistically the same in speed, with lee maybe being a bit faster <but not faster enough to have a higher stat>

Originally Posted by spiralblitz

Neiji can see where lee is gonna be so he can counter faster than lee can attack unless lee opens some gates he's not Out speeding neiji.

dunno why you keep bringing up this "neiji" person

Originally Posted by spiralblitz

The battle comes down to Is lee's gates more powerful then neiji's rotation

We already Know primary lotus can't break rotation thanks to filler. but we do know primary lotus faster than rotation. so its possible lee could get in before neiji does rotation.

and there goes any chance, however slim, your argument had to being valid

[hahonryuu]

no one has anything else add?

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by hahonryuu

man, are you in denial or what? you live in an odd world where punching sand makes your leg bleed and causes your cheek to get cut and where 4 is more than 4. vs kido neji was a 4 in speed, same as lee. vs naruto neji was only 3, but this neji is a 4

and even then, you yourself in a previous lee battle said that lee was probably a 3 or lower in speed with his weights on. so at BEST he would have started the fight on equal speed to a lesser neji based on how fast you probably thought neji was.

my bad, I was thinking this was chunin exams neji, which is why I though lee was faster. and actually, with the recent finding that sasuke at 3 speed was faster than gaara's sand, lee is likely only a 2 in speed with the weights on, and his max possible would be 2.5 since 3 isn't possible.

this is totally off topic, but now that I started thinking about gaara again, I was thinking: gaara had never been hit once before lee hit him pre-gates, and it only takes 3 speed to beat the sand, which apparently isn't hard to achieve in the leaf village, and gaara had fought and killed jonin before....those must have been some weak *$$ jonin!

also off topic, if neji was a 3 in speed, that means he was capable of running around the opponent so fast you couldn't see him, as sasuke did against gaara, so he must have slowed WAY down fighting naruto, cuz he wasn't moving near that fast (except perhaps when he used 64 palms). also, he should have been able to dodge naruto's attack from behind without having to resort to rotation, since naruto was significantly slower than neji. (.5 is a massive difference from what we've seen)

[hahonryuu]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

my bad, I was thinking this was chunin exams neji, which is why I though lee was faster. and actually, with the recent finding that sasuke at 3 speed was faster than gaara's sand, lee is likely only a 2 in speed with the weights on, and his max possible would be 2.5 since 3 isn't possible.

this is totally off topic, but now that I started thinking about gaara again, I was thinking: gaara had never been hit once before lee hit him pre-gates, and it only takes 3 speed to beat the sand, which apparently isn't hard to achieve in the leaf village, and gaara had fought and killed jonin before....those must have been some weak *$$ jonin!

did it say he beat jonin? i know he's been ona B rank mission before, so he's been on a mission that involved killing ninjas, and i know papakage has tried to have him killed, though the only person we actually saw doing seemed like a wuss so...maybe the assassination attempts don't happen often? or maybe he's not actually trying to have him killed, but was just keeping his skills sharp?

other than the jonin thing i was thinking the EXACT same thing. i took a look at stats of various people and <if i just say their name, that means any version of them can do it>

-lee
-neji
-chidori sasuke
-rasengan naruto <not that it matters since even then he could transform>
-chuunin sakura
-any S4/5/6 <5 counting kimi, 6 counting ukon> member not named jirobo

-TENTEN!!!! <yeah, i know...to be fair she IS on guys team as well. though she doesn't kill herself in training like lee does, but training with guy must make you pretty fit physically>

-kiba
-sai
-haku
-dosu
-jonin temari
-vs kimimaro gaara...not that him out speeding his own sand is very relevant

all have the speed to get around it. and that's just the youngsters.

*there's a ----- line...skip to it for my point if you don't want to read. this post got bigger then i intended.

everyone above chuunin level except ebisu and kankuro that we have stats for are also 3 or higher. that's akatsuki <including kabuto, not including sasuke's crew> minus pain, konan, zetsu, and madara, the sensei, hiruzen, sannin, the examiners, shizune, zabuza, and tsunade's boyfriend dan. if im missing anyone i either forgot to list them or they don't have stats yet...but i would be willing to bet madara, minato, raikage <actually, probably all the kage...maybe not tsuchikage though. even hiruzen was just a 3 and this guy seems a bit more decrepit haha>, bee <probably all jinchuuriki, if only because they can transform>, pain*, and konan will make that list when/if we get their stats

*I'm talking the bodies, not nagato...he doesn't seem like he's in very, err, speedy shape.

now of course you also have to consider that those are all either elite ninja, or VERY skilled lower level ninja. not counting the adults i listed, since none of them need defending haha <i hardly think i should have to justify kakashi, guy, or itachi for example>, but think about it. most of the people who took the chuunin exam got booted really fast. even the ones who got pretty far in the forest couldn't stand up to those that did...and most of the people who did make it, not counting the spies, were rookies and/or taking part in their first exam ever. in fact, outside kabuto's team i think all of them were on their first ever chuunin exam. to get further than most do on their first try? and even then the ones who lost in the prelims or main matches <including the...unofficial ones> fought very well.

even shy little hinata did very well considering her opponent. i mean unless she got paired against gaara or naruto <she wouldn't be able to fight him lol>, she couldn't have had a worse opponent.

heck, out of the people that mattered, ino and sakura were probably the ones that deserved to be there the least. i can't speak for ino, but sakura was definitely carried by her team. all she really did was stall for time against team sound. but even they had above average qualities with ino's mind transfer and sakuras chakra control.
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the people that the manga shows us most of the time...they are VERY likely not the norm for ninjas in that world. most of them are probably irukas and ebisu's. the younger ones are exceptional for their age. the older ones <most anyway>, including the new older ones we've been encountering within the last year or so minus the really unimportant ones, are at the peak of the ninja world. people from all over know of kakashi. might guy is beast. asuma has a good sized bounty on his head and was once a bodyguard of the leader of fire country. can't speak for kurenai but she is pretty fast, smart, and good with genjutsu. and everyone else is a sannin or kage or jinchuuriki.

and those are the people we get stats for, with a few lesser people here and there. its no surprise that so many of them have the potential to at least make gaara work for it, if not outright beat him.
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perhaps sasuke was using chakra to make himself go faster? but gaara has definitely been fighting weaklings. but hey, the world is mostly weaklings. or perhaps he usually gets them so easily because they are surprised/unprepared/scared? i mean kiba had the speed, but he and akamaru were scared crapless of gaara. surely if he had fought him he would have lost just because he was too afraid.

Originally Posted by Nejifan

also off topic, if neji was a 3 in speed, that means he was capable of running around the opponent so fast you couldn't see him, as sasuke did against gaara, so he must have slowed WAY down fighting naruto, cuz he wasn't moving near that fast (except perhaps when he used 64 palms). also, he should have been able to dodge naruto's attack from behind without having to resort to rotation, since naruto was significantly slower than neji. (.5 is a massive difference from what we've seen)

if .5 is sucha small difference then why was sasuke able to fight against haku so easily? the times .5 seems like alot, there is probably more to it then that than just the speed. i mean theres a .5 difference between temari and tenten and <though we don't know what happened in that fight specifically> temari was totally fine while tenten...well she looks like she had fought gaara but got saved at the last second haha.

as for why neji doesnt seem omg fast, i actually have a legitimate answer,a nd i got it from the manga so it should be cool with even you

neji is a 3 ins speed and a 2 in stamina
sasuke was also a 3 in speed and a 2 in stamina

moving that fast took a lot out of sasuke. keeping that level of speed up is difficult with such low stamina. and his fighting style directly uses chakra as a weapon, so wasting stamina on speed when its unneeded doesn't seem very pro.

long story short, he doesn't have the stamina to zoom around like that


better question, why the crap did kabuto get hit by that rasengan. he was being held immobile by an injured hand? seriously, make a fist and grab it with your other hand...it isn't hard to yank it out. he didn't try to kick him or anything either. why not turn the grabbed hand into a chakra scalpel and make naruto's hand worthless? why not use his other hand?

now THAT doesn't make any sense

[hahonryuu]

tl;dr chuunin tenten didn't read it either


hmm actually i have something to add. ive been thinking, and why i have no way to prove it, and actually digging around for evidence seems troublesome, i think it makes sense.

i thought about it when you mentioned .5 <actually i have thought about it off and on for a long time> being a big difference and realized...its situational. the higher the stats are, the more noticeable numerical differences are and the lower the stats are the less noticeable numerical differences are.

EX

one person is a 1 in strength and another person is .5

two difference people

one person is a 4.5 in strength and another is 5

the numerical difference is the same...just .5. but i believe that there is a bigger physical difference between the second pair of people. like say they arm wrestled <and all their strength was in their arms and they all had equal stamina and technique>, i think the person who is a 5 would defeat the person who is a 4.5 more easily than the 1 would defeat the .5

or heck, maybe its the other way around? maybe it depends on the stat? maybe im just wrong?

and of course the differences between people who have the same stat. say, a 3 and a 3. obviously it would take more than a mild increase to push it up to 3.5, otherwise getting to 5 would be easy as pie. yet 2 people who have the same numerical stat wouldn't necessarily have the same physical <or mental> difference. maybe one of them is ont eh verge of becoming a 3.5? going back to neji and sasuke, maybe sasuke IS faster...maybe he's like a 3.4 to neji's 3? enough to be faster but not enough to raise himself up a notch on the chart? as for that big list of peopel who can get through gaaras sand, maybe you need a 3.3 or higher to do it?

and what qualifies as being good in a stat? naruto only knows A rank jutsu as a kid <except a few basic academy jutsu>...yet his ninjutsu score is downright pitiful. so its more of a skill thing than a power thing in the nin/tai/gen department. naruto is also seemingly retarded 1/2 the time. yet his intelligence score is higher than you'd think all things considering. and shippuuden naruto is even at 3, which probably comes from his resourcefulness. i mean there are people with much higher intel scores that can't seem to come up with battle plans as easily and quickly as him. and outside kyuubi/sage mode, he never seems very strong or fast...yet his vs sasuke and shippuuden stats are pretty impressive. of course to be fair he's fought almost exclusively freakishly strong people since <and including> gaara, so its no surprise he seems inadequate. or take neji. cool, calm, collected, analyzing...fairly low intelligence. he also has decent speed yet we never seem to see it outside his hand movements when he's 64ing the crap outta someone. perhaps the speed from that stat is coming from his hands? IIRC that's actually something we thought about in last years tourney. why does he have a respectable ninjutsu stat when he only uses taijutsu and we've never seen ninjutsu from him? maybe we have. perhaps gentlefist, since chakra is such an essential part of it, is considered to be a ninjutsu/taijutsu hybrid. thus the better he gets with gentle fist, the more both stats go up..it isn't a 1:1 thing, but it makes decent sense.

just something to think about.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by hahonryuu

tl;dr chuunin tenten didn't read it either


hmm actually i have something to add. ive been thinking, and why i have no way to prove it, and actually digging around for evidence seems troublesome, i think it makes sense.

i thought about it when you mentioned .5 <actually i have thought about it off and on for a long time> being a big difference and realized...its situational. the higher the stats are, the more noticeable numerical differences are and the lower the stats are the less noticeable numerical differences are.

EX

one person is a 1 in strength and another person is .5

two difference people

one person is a 4.5 in strength and another is 5

the numerical difference is the same...just .5. but i believe that there is a bigger physical difference between the second pair of people. like say they arm wrestled <and all their strength was in their arms and they all had equal stamina and technique>, i think the person who is a 5 would defeat the person who is a 4.5 more easily than the 1 would defeat the .5

or heck, maybe its the other way around? maybe it depends on the stat? maybe im just wrong?

and of course the differences between people who have the same stat. say, a 3 and a 3. obviously it would take more than a mild increase to push it up to 3.5, otherwise getting to 5 would be easy as pie. yet 2 people who have the same numerical stat wouldn't necessarily have the same physical <or mental> difference. maybe one of them is ont eh verge of becoming a 3.5? going back to neji and sasuke, maybe sasuke IS faster...maybe he's like a 3.4 to neji's 3? enough to be faster but not enough to raise himself up a notch on the chart? as for that big list of peopel who can get through gaaras sand, maybe you need a 3.3 or higher to do it?

and what qualifies as being good in a stat? naruto only knows A rank jutsu as a kid <except a few basic academy jutsu>...yet his ninjutsu score is downright pitiful. so its more of a skill thing than a power thing in the nin/tai/gen department. naruto is also seemingly retarded 1/2 the time. yet his intelligence score is higher than you'd think all things considering. and shippuuden naruto is even at 3, which probably comes from his resourcefulness. i mean there are people with much higher intel scores that can't seem to come up with battle plans as easily and quickly as him. and outside kyuubi/sage mode, he never seems very strong or fast...yet his vs sasuke and shippuuden stats are pretty impressive. of course to be fair he's fought almost exclusively freakishly strong people since <and including> gaara, so its no surprise he seems inadequate. or take neji. cool, calm, collected, analyzing...fairly low intelligence. he also has decent speed yet we never seem to see it outside his hand movements when he's 64ing the crap outta someone. perhaps the speed from that stat is coming from his hands? IIRC that's actually something we thought about in last years tourney. why does he have a respectable ninjutsu stat when he only uses taijutsu and we've never seen ninjutsu from him? maybe we have. perhaps gentlefist, since chakra is such an essential part of it, is considered to be a ninjutsu/taijutsu hybrid. thus the better he gets with gentle fist, the more both stats go up..it isn't a 1:1 thing, but it makes decent sense.

just something to think about.

I didn't quote both posts simply because that would have been THE LONGEST POST IN HISTORY!! lol, but I agree with your neji hypothesis, it makes sense. also, with neji being good in ninjutsu, you do have to credit him with the rotation, that's a pretty high level tech, and the fact that neji has such extreme chakra CONTROL is probably what grants him that stat. We found out during the sound 5 arc that he can release chakra from all of his chakra nodes simultaneously, which is something that even people like sakura and tsunade can't do. I'm betting that the ninjutsu stat covers 3 areas: control, skill, and strength. neji has the 1st two down pat, which would accomodate decent scores in the stat.

[Ninjasrock31]

Hmm i would give this to neji as the longer the fight goes on the more gentle fist becomes effective as the internal damage would just pile up against lee and without being able to go beyond 1st gate lee is denied his trump card. Neji might still win when lee has all his gates but without them lee is a goner.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Ninjasrock31

Hmm i would give this to neji as the longer the fight goes on the more gentle fist becomes effective as the internal damage would just pile up against lee and without being able to go beyond 1st gate lee is denied his trump card. Neji might still win when lee has all his gates but without them lee is a goner.

thing is, EVERY gate allows you to be stronger and faster, so the 1st gate, which lee can use, does put him over neji in terms of speed ever so slightly. I'm not saying it would be easy for lee to win, neji is sickly skilled, also, they both know all of each other's moves, so lee would be uber careful when attacking neji. It's pretty hard to determine a winner here. hmm....hahon, what is lee's stamina if you would please.

[spiralblitz]

Your right the match is to even to call.

So it comes down to endurance.
When using the eight gates, the side effects put tremendous strain on the body. Lee will never last as long a neji using the eight inner gates. Unless Rock Lee ends it quickly Neji will win.

Neji's gentle fist attacks internally using the chakra network to damage the body inside as opposed to outside.

So if neji lands one solid blow it could clinch the entire match. Essentially one hit near Lee's lungs could end it.

let's face it guys Neji beats Lee in endurance and he has an overwhelming advantage at delivering Endurance draining blows.

[hahonryuu]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

thing is, EVERY gate allows you to be stronger and faster, so the 1st gate, which lee can use, does put him over neji in terms of speed ever so slightly. I'm not saying it would be easy for lee to win, neji is sickly skilled, also, they both know all of each other's moves, so lee would be uber careful when attacking neji. It's pretty hard to determine a winner here. hmm....hahon, what is lee's stamina if you would please.

lee's stamina is a 3, not that its super important seeing as a normal taijutsu type like him would be able to fight longer than someone like neji who expels extra chakra with every attack and exerts a LOT on the defense <rotation> unless neji had significantly higher chakra

of course opening even one gate tires lee out. until guy, err, smiled for him < it was actually because he opened the 2nd gate, the heal gate>, gaara was kicking his butt after lotus failed and his movements were slower. so if he lotus's and failed, then he'll be in trouble till he activates the second gate...which may take a few moments since he didn't do it right away against gaara

and of course neji will start the fight faster than him. and unlike when he fought kiba in a previous round, neji's speed is on par with his own, and to make matters worse neji is super skilled at taijutsu unlike kiba. with the exception of numbers, all of the disadvantages lee had against kiba are still here, and he has less advantages on his side this time

and lets be honest, he learned to open up so many gates and use the primary/extreme/hidden lotus specifically for fighting neji...lee himself apparently doesn't believe he can win without it. and the neji he trained to use it against wasn't as powerful as this one. and to make matters worse, lee needs a DBZ moment of sitting there constipated to open up the 3rd and 4th gates. neji wont just sit there letting him power up.

Originally Posted by spiralblitz

Your right the match is to even to call.

So it comes down to endurance.
When using the eight gates, the side effects put tremendous strain on the body. Lee will never last as long a neji using the eight inner gates. Unless Rock Lee ends it quickly Neji will win.

Neji's gentle fist attacks internally using the chakra network to damage the body inside as opposed to outside.

So if neji lands one solid blow it could clinch the entire match. Essentially one hit near Lee's lungs could end it.

let's face it guys Neji beats Lee in endurance and he has an overwhelming advantage at delivering Endurance draining blows.

i see what you are saying but you worded that wrong. technically lee has more...but you are correct that every successful/partially successful <even grazes hurt a lot> attack neji makes is going to count for more than normal and take more out of lee then normal punches and kicks. and if he can close up some chakra points he can even slowly make lee's body worthless