Naruto 619: Super Early Edition

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

you don't have to be badass all the time, you just have to not be a dumbass. There is a difference. also, I'm pretty sure the word you are looking for is "subjective" not "objective", as opinions are subjective, and that is entirely what this discussion is about, my opinion of who is and isn't a badass, and why.

You are the master of being subjective, that's the problem. How can I have a serious debate with someone who rejects anything that differs from his own personal opinions, no matter how logical the argument? If I want to have an irrational argument with someone, I'll go in the next room and talk to my wife.

[Eye-of-God]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

The edo tensei comment was about itachi, not orochimaru so those are two different things. The reason I don't like itachi after he came back was because he acted in a different way than when he was alive. I much prefer the 'dark hero' itachi. That itachi was a badass. After he came back, there was more "revealed" about him i guess you could say, and it weakens the appeal of his character. his personality was just a little too cheesy after he was brought back. That's why I revoke his "badass" card.

As for orochimaru, A: He has the ability to use edo tensei, one of the most powerful techniques every created (call it an "unfair advantage" if you want, but that has nothing to do with anything. hell, the 2nd hokage was the first one who planned on using it, he invented it for goodness sake.) And while power alone is not badassery, it is PART of badassery, so there is that.

Also, "unfair" is completely irrelevant to any kind of combat. That's like saying that sasuke had an unfair advantage against gaara during the chunin exams because he had lightning chakra, which goes through sand. It's just how it is. Madara's immortality isn't fair either, but it's part of what makes him a badass. He can't die. ever.

Secondly, he is known to be a master of many kinds of jutsu, much like kakashi, except he didn't have to copy them with sharingan, he learned them the old fashion way, the same way sarutobi did.

Third, sasuke attacked him while he was weak and sick. Had orochimaru been at full strength sasuke would have had his *** handed to him. You want to talk about "unfair advantages", then you can't ignore that one.

4th, Orochimaru came away completely unhurt from a battle against an opponent that jiraiya nearly got killed by. One of the only times he was almost killed. one of the only 2 times. That is not an "easy" opponent. If jiraiya is a badass, orochimaru is easily moderately so.

The Itachi thing I guess I just don't see it but as they say to each his own.

I guess I shouldn't have said unfair advantage because in the ninja world they're alot of OP techniques but I was just really refering to having to resort to bringing back the the first and second to go against a ninja who by his own subordinates claim to not have his chackra reserves as he used to to where he could sustain shadow clone jutsu for very long.

I'm sure it is more tough to not kill the 4 tails and survive then it is to go all out against it and kill him. seeing as Jiraiyas intent wasn't to kill him just calm him down.

Oro being sick that's why Sasuke defeated him I don't know about that much was he sick versus Itachi don't think so and that didn't matter much either. Keep in mind we didn't know what Sasuke was truely capable of until he fought Itachi so understandibly thinking he was capable of that before he beat Oro, seeing as he hasn't done any knowable training after that point. Never would thought I'd ever see the day where I'd be defending Sasuke I can't stand him but that's another story

And him learning many Jutsu it does warrent some praise but the pure mastery of jutsu doesn't decide badassness IMO.

lastly and leastly lightning versus earth isn't an "unfair" advantage cause in the ninja world that is supposed to be the way it is I guess from a "Scientific" purspective, it is an advantage but not unfair.

Ending with how I opened to each his own.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Eye-of-God

The Itachi thing I guess I just don't see it but as they say to each his own.

I guess I shouldn't have said unfair advantage because in the ninja world they're alot of OP techniques but I was just really refering to having to resort to bringing back the the first and second to go against a ninja who by his own subordinates claim to not have his chackra reserves as he used to to where he could sustain shadow clone jutsu for very long.

I'm sure it is more tough to not kill the 4 tails and survive then it is to go all out against it and kill him.

Oro being sick that's why Sasuke defeated him I don't know about that much was he sick versus Itachi don't think so and that didn't matter much either. Keep in mind we didn't know what Sasuke was truely capable of until he fought Itachi so understandibly thinking he was capable of that before he beat Oro, seeing as he hasn't done any knowable training after that point. Never would thought I'd ever see the day where I'd be defending Sasuke I can't stand him but that's another story

And him learning many Jutsu it warrents some praise but the pure mastery of jutsu doesn't decide badassness IMO.

lastly and leastly lightning versus earth isn't an "unfair" advantage cause in the ninja world that is supposed to be the way it is I guess from a "Scientific" purspective, it is an advantage but not unfair.

Ending with how I opened to each his own.

Fair enough, though I would clarify a few points. Number one being that orochimaru didn't go "all out" against 4 tailed naruto. We have no reason to believe he did anything more than test him for his own amusement.

Also, sasuke wasn't capable of beating itachi either. Itachi was already dying before the fight even began. Besides, itachi WANTED to lose. it's hardly the same thing.

Lastly, orochimaru didn't have to "resort" to edo tensei per se, he likely did it because he wanted the third to have to fight his predecessors. We have no reason to believe he actually couldn't have beaten him otherwise (except of course for the fact that he has RDS.) Honestly, his stats are just as good, he has probably a larger arsenal of jutsu than the third does, not to mention that he can regenerate in a way.

I agree, to each his own, but I wanted to clarify those points.

Originally Posted by Chidori

You are the master of being subjective, that's the problem. How can I have a serious debate with someone who rejects anything that differs from his own personal opinions, no matter how logical the argument? If I want to have an irrational argument with someone, I'll go in the next room and talk to my wife.

A: You shouldn't say that about your wife.
B: this entire debate IS subjective. That's my point. If I say "The first hokage was not a badass", that is interpreted by anyone with sense as "my opinion", not as me stating an empirical fact. I don't "reject" things based on opinion, but when it comes to opinion vs opinion, I am more than entitled to disagree. Also, I'm not sure what "logic" you are referring to. People are entitled to disagree with me. I dont' care if they agree or not. What I care about is people presenting arguments that are not logically founded. I have been consistently supporting my argument with logical data taken from the manga, and inference from the evidence provided therein. (with the exception of the "weakened" kage's. not sure where that idea came from honestly.)
C: in a debate that is purely subjective, you cannot say that I am "wrong". Yet you insist upon it for some reason. That is your problem, not mine.

[Susano'o the Storm God]

Ugh... Why the f*** does Nejifan start some dumba** argument with someone/people every f***ing chapter discussion thread?!? Must you b**** over who is, and who isn't, "badass"? We all get that you consider anything other than generic, cool, occasionally jerky, ultra powerful characters to be "cheesy". I respect your opinions, but you don't have to shove it down other peoples' throats when they explain their opinion on who they thin is "badass", or just their favorite character in general.

[Follower Of Jashin]

Originally Posted by Chidori

If I want to have an irrational argument with someone, I'll go in the next room and talk to my wife.

ima tell on you and she gonna whoop your a$$ lol

[Follower Of Jashin]

The only bada$$ is kisame that is all

[Tagrineth]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

And honestly, I'm still not sure why orochimaru was allowed to make a contract with the death god and live. Did he find a loophole in the fine print? seriously, even if you don't take someone's soul, just by making the contract and having him show up, i was under the impression you had to pay with your soul.

I don't think he had to sign away his soul because he didn't have the Shinigami take someone else's soul. However he did say he had to sacrifice himself to cut open the Shinigami's stomach, which wasn't a lie lol.

[Sai'ix Renkai]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

And honestly, I'm still not sure why orochimaru was allowed to make a contract with the death god and live. Did he find a loophole in the fine print? seriously, even if you don't take someone's soul, just by making the contract and having him show up, i was under the impression you had to pay with your soul.

Well, it could be one of many things. Here's two that I think.

To release from the Reaper, you need to sacrifice your body, not your soul. So he did just that.

Or, he sacrificed what remained of the soul of the body he took currently, right before the Zetsu. I mean, do we know that he COMPLETELY takes over? Maybe there's some soul leftover. Who knows, aside from Kishimoto?

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Sai'ix Renkai

Well, it could be one of many things. Here's two that I think.

To release from the Reaper, you need to sacrifice your body, not your soul. So he did just that.

Or, he sacrificed what remained of the soul of the body he took currently, right before the Zetsu. I mean, do we know that he COMPLETELY takes over? Maybe there's some soul leftover. Who knows, aside from Kishimoto?

Using the mask seems to be the preferred way to summon da reaper.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Susano'o the Storm God

Ugh... Why the f*** does Nejifan start some dumba** argument with someone/people every f***ing chapter discussion thread?!? Must you b**** over who is, and who isn't, "badass"? We all get that you consider anything other than generic, cool, occasionally jerky, ultra powerful characters to be "cheesy". I respect your opinions, but you don't have to shove it down other peoples' throats when they explain their opinion on who they thin is "badass", or just their favorite character in general.

A: I don't even comment on every chapter, so don't make statements about me that aren't true. It just makes you look like the bad guy, not me.

B: I'm not arguing, I'm not debating, and I'm not trying to convince people that I am right. I have no clue as to how you came to that conclusion, I am simply voicing my opinion. Sorry that it bothers you that I am not afraid to disagree with people. Get over it. I don't shove it down anybody's throat, and I never said anyone else's opinion was wrong. Sounds to me like you just needed to throw a tantrum, and decided to blame me, without actually reading anything I said.

Seriously, did you just completely miss the post where I agreed to disagree? Learn to read before you rant, it makes you look less like a dumb****.