the usual

[Earthbullet]

Originally Posted by spiritomb

What makes you think I'm asking about the coins? I'm not asking about the coins.

Also what if an injured valid ninja dies as the result of a showdown. Its effect was to discard the top 2 cards of your opponents deck whenever it received any damage? Buy your logic it wouldn't work. And yet that is an exception to the rule.

well the reason it would be valid is so that when it takes damage the first time its effect didnt shut off

[spiritomb]

Originally Posted by Earthbullet

well the reason it would be valid is so that when it takes damage the first time its effect didnt shut off

Its been ruled in the recent past that in that case if the injured ninja would receive damage that two cards would still be "milled".

[kunoalpha]

Originally Posted by spiritomb

What makes you think I'm asking about the coins? I'm not asking about the coins.

Also what if an injured valid ninja dies as the result of a showdown. Its effect was to discard the top 2 cards of your opponents deck whenever it received any damage? By your logic it wouldn't work. And yet that is an exception to the rule.

Kiba works like this

1. You pay the (1) for cost
2. then you see if you can Remove a coin from a permanent mission and -1/-1 a ninja
3. Then you check if you can negate said mission

Kiba can't even be attempted unless the mission has coins on it. (well he can, but nothing will resolve.)

[VSA]

Originally Posted by spiritomb

What makes you think I'm asking about the coins? I'm not asking about the coins.

Also what if an injured valid ninja dies as the result of a showdown. Its effect was to discard the top 2 cards of your opponents deck whenever it received any damage? Buy your logic it wouldn't work. And yet that is an exception to the rule.

So on the first one you're an even bigger idiot then I thought, guess I have to spell it out for you. You're asking about the negation portion of Kiba. If there are NO coins to remove, a mission cannot be negated.

A Quiet Day That's the mission you're referring to.

Kiba That's the ninja you're referring to.

Now, you're going to have to keep up with me on this one alright?

When you play a counter mission (or just a mission in general), you add the mission itself to the chain, after which your opponent is given the option to add any effect they want to the chain (that's legal, of course). So say your opponent casts A Quiet Day. If you have no responses after it goes on the chain both you and your opponent pass priority and it resolves. The mission is then put in play and blankets the field with its "Ninjas have no effect text line." Now in between it resolving and priority being given back to the attacker, there's no chance for you to add Kiba to the chain, as you simply don't have the priority to do that.

If you add Kiba to the chain to remove a coin from a mission (Say your opponent has Appearance of Unknown Rivals in play for whatever reason), and your opponent plays A Quiet day, if you don't have a response to the A Quiet Day, you won't remove the coin or negate anything.

So I'm going to write this so simply even you'll be able to understand, okay?

Player 1: I deploy Ink Leech (Already has Kiba in play)
Player 2: I play A Quiet Day (No permanent missions in play)
Player 1: I do not have a response (Kiba has no targets)
Player 2: A Quiet Day resolves (Player 1's ninja are negated)
Player 1: Ink Leech is negated, Kiba is negated (A Quiet Day is in play)

Just so you get it, until a mission resolves, if it's permanent, it doesn't have any coins on it, as coins aren't given until it's finished resolving. Kiba only removes coins from resolved missions, and A Quiet Day negates the moment it hits play, there's no timing window, no fancy triggers, to get around it. That's simply how the game works.


For the second issue, your example (EX: receives damage, mill 2) works fine, as it takes lethal damage, meaning it would die before its trigger would resolve. Again, if it takes lethal damage, effects won't resolve. Same as jutsu battles. Oh and also for this issue, you seemed to have ignored this vital piece of information:

Originally Posted by Alex_Bandai

3) The card is still in the area that it was targeted in originally and never left that area.

Either you're criminally under educated and can't read, or criminally incompetent and ignoring the information right in front of you.

[Sai'ix Renkai]

You are asking about the coins though. That Kiba removes coins. Coins don't come into play until the mission resolves. Here's what would happen.

1) Your opponent would play A Quiet Day
2) You'd chain Kiba. End chain.
3) Kiba would then check for a coin to remove, as per his effect.
4) Since AQD hasn't resolved yet, no coins are on it. Therefore, Kiba cannot remove a coin. Effect essentially fizzles, because you didn't remove a coin from any mission, therefore you can't target it for negation.
5) AQD resolves, putting 1 coin on itself, and negating all in play ninja effects.

Shino's Dad, correct me if any of this is wrong. Spiritomb, this is the easiest way to explain it without stamping a "Because Bandai said so, now stop." on it.

[kunoalpha]

Pretty Sure VSA could write the rulebook better than Bandai can at this point.

[Shino'sDad]

Originally Posted by Sai'ix Renkai

You are asking about the coins though. That Kiba removes coins. Coins don't come into play until the mission resolves. Here's what would happen.

1) Your opponent would play A Quiet Day
2) You'd chain Kiba. End chain.
3) Kiba would then check for a coin to remove, as per his effect.
4) Since AQD hasn't resolved yet, no coins are on it. Therefore, Kiba cannot remove a coin. Effect essentially fizzles, because you didn't remove a coin from any mission, therefore you can't target it for negation.
5) AQD resolves, putting 1 coin on itself, and negating all in play ninja effects.

Shino's Dad, correct me if any of this is wrong. Spiritomb, this is the easiest way to explain it without stamping a "Because Bandai said so, now stop." on it.

Kiba actually doesn't have to remove any coins from the Mission in order to negate it. His effect is a two part effect and while they reference each other, they are not actually connected. This is the same for all of the dual chakra 1 cost Ninjas from Kage Summit (Kiba, Tayuya, Rock Lee, Sakura, Shikamaru)

I'll break down the effect real quick:

[Attacker | Mission]
(1): If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja. Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

Most important is the timing obviously. Your Mission Phase. His Cost is 1 of any chakra.

Now, then you add his effect to the chain, you have Two targets you have to announce before you pay the cost:

If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja. Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

So you would announce Kiba's effect, and specify the Permanent Mission you are targeting, and the Ninja you are targeting. Then you'd pay your 1 Chakra.

When Kiba resolves, you follow the text from start to finish, First off:

If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja

So, if you control another Fire Ninja, you would remove a coin on the Permanent Mission, if there are any, and place a -1/-1 coin on the target Ninja.

Next:

Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

So, if you control another Lightning Ninja, you negate the effect text of that target Mission just this turn.

If you Only control another Fire Ninja, you still remove a coin if possible, and place a -1/-1 coin. If you Only control another Lightning Ninja, you would still negate the effect of that Permanent Mission.


Now, as for what Spiritomb is trying to do:

He wants to be able to target A Quiet Day while it is On the Chain, before it is put in play and a coin is placed on it. Since Kiba doesn't actually care about removing the coin or not, what we're focusing on is If he can still negate the effect text of a Permanent Mission while it is on the chain. To this I would say no, and that you would not even be able to target it unless it is actually in play.

[Sai'ix Renkai]

Originally Posted by Shino'sDad

Kiba actually doesn't have to remove any coins from the Mission in order to negate it. His effect is a two part effect and while they reference each other, they are not actually connected. This is the same for all of the dual chakra 1 cost Ninjas from Kage Summit (Kiba, Tayuya, Rock Lee, Sakura, Shikamaru)

I'll break down the effect real quick:

[Attacker | Mission]
(1): If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja. Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

Most important is the timing obviously. Your Mission Phase. His Cost is 1 of any chakra.

Now, then you add his effect to the chain, you have Two targets you have to announce before you pay the cost:

If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja. Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

So you would announce Kiba's effect, and specify the Permanent Mission you are targeting, and the Ninja you are targeting. Then you'd pay your 1 Chakra.

When Kiba resolves, you follow the text from start to finish, First off:

If you control another Fire Ninja, remove a coin from target Permanent Mission, then place a -1/-1 coin on target Ninja

So, if you control another Fire Ninja, you would remove a coin on the Permanent Mission, if there are any, and place a -1/-1 coin on the target Ninja.

Next:

Then, if you control another Lightning Ninja, negate that Mission's effect text during this turn.

So, if you control another Lightning Ninja, you negate the effect text of that target Mission just this turn.

If you Only control another Fire Ninja, you still remove a coin if possible, and place a -1/-1 coin. If you Only control another Lightning Ninja, you would still negate the effect of that Permanent Mission.


Now, as for what Spiritomb is trying to do:

He wants to be able to target A Quiet Day while it is On the Chain, before it is put in play and a coin is placed on it. Since Kiba doesn't actually care about removing the coin or not, what we're focusing on is If he can still negate the effect text of a Permanent Mission while it is on the chain. To this I would say no, and that you would not even be able to target it unless it is actually in play.

That's why I tend to take your rulings as law around here. Thank you for the correction, sir.

[egosumsolus]

Originally Posted by Shino'sDad

If you Only control another Fire Ninja, you still remove a coin if possible, and place a -1/-1 coin.

If you Only control another Lightning Ninja, you would still negate the effect of that Permanent Mission.

I oddly find myself in agreement with Spiritomb. I believed Kiba worked the same way. As Shino'sDad has pointed out, the Negation part of Kiba is not dependent on the success or applicability of his first effect of removing a coin and placing a -1/-1 coin. As a result, I used what I would consider to be sound logic to determine if Kiba worked:

1. A Mission Card, regardless if it is Counter, Permanent, or "Normal," is considered to be a Mission when it is on the Chain.

2. A Mission Card isn't a Permanent Mission because it has coins on it and/or lasts a specific amount of turns. It is a Permanent Mission because it is aptly labeled as so. It IS a Permanent Mission on the Chain just as much as New Orders is a Counter Mission on the Chain. A Quiet Day does not need to resolve to be a Permanent Mission - IT IS a Permanent Mission.

3. Finally, I originally argued that Gameru N-1515 should function like Hina where it was pointed out to me by Laughing_Man that Gameru states "in-play" and therefore fails to target and negate Counter Missions like Hina did because Permanent Missions are only ever in-play after they've resolved. But Kiba does NOT require the Permanent Mission be "in-play." In fact, it is worded just like Hina. Given the precedent set with Hina and the ruling I received, Kiba is worded in a manner that would allow him to Negate a Permanent Mission not yet considered "in-play" as long as it meets the requirement of being a Permanent Mission.

Here is the link to my Gameru debate with Laughing_Man and his very thorough answers. I think Spiritomb is right in this situation.

[url]http://www.bandai.com/naruto/showthread.php?t=97087[/url]

Originally Posted by Shino'sDad

He wants to be able to target A Quiet Day while it is On the Chain, before it is put in play and a coin is placed on it. Since Kiba doesn't actually care about removing the coin or not, what we're focusing on is If he can still negate the effect text of a Permanent Mission while it is on the chain. To this I would say no, and that you would not even be able to target it unless it is actually in play.

Given your experience with the game and Hina of the previous Block, you know full well a Mission Card on the Chain is still a Mission. There is a very significant difference between when an effect states "in-play" (Gameru) versus just a card type (Hina/Kiba). Without the "in-play" prerequisite on Kiba, your point here is mute. If your intent is to say "well Kiba says 'Negate that Mission's effect text during this turn" and therefore it fails because the card doesn't have effect text, that simply is not true. The card DOES have an effect text written on that is the intended consequence of a successful resolution of that Mission. But Kiba is preventing the Mission or Mission Card from being played, it is simply setting up a condition that the Targeted Permanent Mission will come into play with a Negated text; this is no different a Timing issue than that time your Put-in-Play Ninja Effect Text was Negated by A Quiet Day during deployment. The Ninja(s) played on the Chain is still a Ninja and therefore targetable by AQD, yet when the resolution of that Chain concludes, the Ninja enters play without an Effect Text for that turn. Kiba literally is written to function the same way. IT IF IS NOT Intended to function in this manner, the card needs a simple errata to add "in-play" to its effect requirements and then it would be impossible for Kiba to Target the Not-in-play AQD on the Chain.

[spiritomb]

Egosumsolus is not wrong. On that note, *Shino'sdad I asked them to prove that, to which you agreed, so it doesnt seem that they fabricated a half concocted (hopefully spellings right) rule. Can you provide proof?