Naruto 618

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Sai'ix Renkai

I have to argue your A and your C. When we saw the 3rd fight, we saw him towards the end of his life, where he was probably at his weakest. Orochimaru, on the other hand, has been perfecting body swapping abilities, putting him in younger bodies with a wider chakra pool. We haven't seen 3rd when he was in his prime, and since he was resurrected old, we likely won't. Saying either Jiraiya or Orochimaru could beat him, or even that he was the weakest Kage, is absurd. We can't prove it. Think of this. He was given, above all the other Hokage, the title of "Professor" because he knew every jutsu in the Leaf.

A: we aren't even discussing the third in his prime. We have ALWAYS been discussing the third in his CURRENT age. I have no clue how you got to the conclusion that his prime was at all relevant.

B: to your previous responses, first off, yes, it does matter if manda is dead, and not jiraiya, because in the idea of the fictional battle, the only person revived would be jiraiya, manda would stay dead. It's not honestly a big issue, I just figured I'd point it out. It wouldn't make that much of a difference of Orochimaru DID have manda.

C: I never said skill and experience don't matter. You obviously can't read. What I said was that IF the opponent has a SIGNIFICANT power advantage, than skill and experience alone are not enough to close that gap. The difference between jiraiya and orochimaru is no where near the difference between naruto and anybody else. It isn't the same issue, so don't pretend it is. If you are going to reference what I say, use it in context. Otherwise, shut up. Misuse of my previous statements is unacceptable.

D: I'd have to look it up, but again, I'm nearly 100% certain that the third fought weaker versions of the 1st and second hokage. As for the "logical inference thing", we do have evidence. Jiraiya is the "naruto" of the sannin, in that he has MASSIVE chakra reserves. Not quite on naruto's level, but definitely the highest of the 3 sannin. and again, from what we have seen, he has the "sage mode" advantage over orochimaru.

Edit: I have not been able to find the idea that the first and 2nd were weaker than their original forms when ressurected. That may have either been a mistranslation (I use a different site now) or perhaps something I caught from the anime in passing, I'm not sure, but in either case, It is possible that I was wrong about that.

However, when it comes to the Jiraiya vs orochimaru idea, we do have the databooks, and jiraiya has much higher stamina (keep in mind that his stats are his "normal" form, not sage mode), and more power as well. Other than that, the only real disparagement is in genjutsu, but we haven't seen orochimaru even use genjutsu much, and jiraiya knows enough to be able to break it. Especially with sage mode. So it is still a reasonable assumption that he could win.

As for orochimaru being stronger than the third hokage, Orochimaru's stats are as good or better than sarutobi's in all areas except taijutsu. As long as we are not incorporating the possibility of RDS being used (which was clarified a long time ago), then I still put things in orochimaru's favor, because, as I said before, we are not talking about sarutobi in his prime, but at the state he was when we saw him fight the other two kage. While still formidable, I don't believe he could defeat orochimaru.

Hence, if the above statements are both true, (while it is not always the case with things like this.) It is reasonable to assume that Jiraiya is "more powerful" than the third hokage.

Lastly, as for whether or not the 3rd is the weakest of the kage, I'm still checking. I'm not sure if perhaps it is the same issue as with my faulty info on the edo tensei kage's. I have not been able to find databook information regarding the stats of hashirama or tobirama yet.

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

A: we aren't even discussing the third in his prime. We have ALWAYS been discussing the third in his CURRENT age. I have no clue how you got to the conclusion that his prime was at all relevant.

B: to your previous responses, first off, yes, it does matter if manda is dead, and not jiraiya, because in the idea of the fictional battle, the only person revived would be jiraiya, manda would stay dead. Who decided that?? It's not honestly a big issue, I just figured I'd point it out. It wouldn't make that much of a difference of Orochimaru DID have manda. Especially since he can summon other giant snakes.

C: I never said skill and experience don't matter. You obviously can't read. What I said was that IF the opponent has a SIGNIFICANT power advantage, than skill and experience alone are not enough to close that gap. The difference between jiraiya and orochimaru is no where near the difference between naruto and anybody else. It isn't the same issue, so don't pretend it is. If you are going to reference what I say, use it in context. Otherwise, shut up. Misuse of my previous statements is unacceptable.


D: I'd have to look it up, but again, I'm nearly 100% certain that the third fought weaker versions of the 1st and second hokage. As for the "logical inference thing", we do have evidence. Jiraiya is the "naruto" of the sannin, in that he has MASSIVE chakra reserves. Not quite on naruto's level, but definitely the highest of the 3 sannin. and again, from what we have seen, he has the "sage mode" advantage over orochimaru.

Edit: I have not been able to find the idea that the first and 2nd were weaker than their original forms when ressurected. That may have either been a mistranslation (I use a different site now) or perhaps something I caught from the anime in passing, I'm not sure, but in either case, It is possible that I was wrong about that.

However, when it comes to the Jiraiya vs orochimaru idea, we do have the databooks, and jiraiya has much higher stamina (keep in mind that his stats are his "normal" form, not sage mode), and more power as well. Other than that, the only real disparagement is in genjutsu, but we haven't seen orochimaru even use genjutsu much, and jiraiya knows enough to be able to break it. Especially with sage mode. So it is still a reasonable assumption that he could win.

As for orochimaru being stronger than the third hokage, Orochimaru's stats are as good or better than sarutobi's in all areas except taijutsu. As long as we are not incorporating the possibility of RDS being used (which was clarified a long time ago), then I still put things in orochimaru's favor, because, as I said before, we are not talking about sarutobi in his prime, but at the state he was when we saw him fight the other two kage. While still formidable, I don't believe he could defeat orochimaru. Again, Oro, 1st, and 2nd together could NOT defeat him.

Hence, if the above statements are both true, (while it is not always the case with things like this.) It is reasonable to assume that Jiraiya is "more powerful" than the third hokage.

Lastly, as for whether or not the 3rd is the weakest of the kage, I'm still checking. I'm not sure if perhaps it is the same issue as with my faulty info on the edo tensei kage's. I have not been able to find databook information regarding the stats of hashirama or tobirama yet. Because it's likely that there is no information, we know almost nothing about them.

You are failing to respond to many of the points I'm making.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Chidori

You are failing to respond to many of the points I'm making.

You do realize that your point about the 3 of them losing to sarutobi is invalid right?

He won because he used RDS, which, again, is not a victory. Orochimaru went away the victor from that fight. Not to mention the fact, that I already stated, several times in fact, that RDS is not an applicable factor with the information I was presenting. I already said that if he used RDS it would be different.

Before he used RDS he was not in any way winning the fight against the 3 of them, so that argument has absolutely no validity.