Naruto 618

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

you're right. It doesn't make him smarter or more skilled. Yet he is, Kurama or not, he HAS gotten smarter and more skilled. He does not act like a child anymore.

I didn't say he acts like a child, I said he is a child. My point is that power doesn't equal skill in battle. The previous hokages have years/decades on Naruto. They are smarter, they know more jutsu, they have fought in more wars.

The "lacking experience" argument is completely invalid. Nearly everyone that naruto has defeated has had "more experience" than he has. Even Gaara had more combat experience than naruto did, and he still won. by himself. (summons do not count as "getting help" since it is an ability that the shinobi possesses. Same goes for using puppets.)

Even if the summons have to tell you how to win? Like Bunta did against Gaara/Shukaku?

We have every reason to believe that he could easily best Sage Jiraiya in combat only using half his available power. What makes you think any one of the kage stand a better chance?

Because the Hokages are better than the sannin? Did Hiruzen pick a sannin to be Yondaime? Nope.

also, whether or not naruto has had help in the past is completely irrelevant when discussing potential battles, since there would be no outside interference allowed under the current context.

Huh?

Honestly, if any of them have a chance, it's hashirama, since he can (maybe) shut down the 9 tailed fox's power. But even then, just with sage mode naruto is incredibly powerful. And even then, it's only IF he can stop the foxes power. Yamato was not able to control naruto after a certain point. We don't know how much of the fox's power that Hashirama can control do we? i don't remember. But any of the other kage? I seriously doubt it. Naruto is as fast or faster than the 4th hokage when he's using his signiature teleportation. That was the entire point of the dialogue saying that bee saw a "yellow flash" when naruto sprinted. It was obviously intended to draw a correlation between the two, or the wording would not have been so exact and emphasized. And that was when he had LESS power than he has now.

What about the dialogue saying that Naruto is almost as fast as Raikage and that Yondaime is faster than Raikage??? And last time I checked, being able to control a bijuu was not the only way to fight a jinchuriki. Did Akatsuki have bijuu controlling powers? No, yet they were able to capture most of the jinchuriki.

In summary, it's possible that hashirama might be able to take him head on, especially since he is the most powerful of the kage. But without reaper death seal (which is, at best, a draw, not a victory.) the third or fourth likely have no chance. Also, yet another reason the experience thing doesn't matter. None of them know what naruto is capable of except for the 4th who was apparently watching him because of the chakra he left with him (which still doesn't make the least bit of sense, but whatever.) They have absolutely no experience with fighting anyone like naruto.

In summary, experience and skill don't matter... whoever can super saiyan power up the most wins. /sarcasm

[SharinganHeir]

Chidori, I was going to make a long post like that, but then I remembered I was arguing with Nejifan. The guy doesn't debate using evidence from the manga. He makes statements of opinion that he thinks are fact. Usually it's fun to argue, but he just exhausts me

Nejifan, I would like to point out that RDS is definitely not the only sealing jutsu that stops edo tensei. No one in the war has used RDS, yet we have seen some of kabuto's resurrections get sealed away.

[Earthbullet]

Originally Posted by SharinganHeir

Chidori, I was going to make a long post like that, but then I remembered I was arguing with Nejifan. The guy doesn't debate using evidence from the manga. He makes statements of opinion that he thinks are fact. Usually it's fun to argue, but he just exhausts me

Nejifan, I would like to point out that RDS is definitely not the only sealing jutsu that stops edo tensei. No one in the war has used RDS, yet we have seen some of kabuto's resurrections get sealed away.

so hes the spiritomb of the manga thread?

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Chidori

I didn't say he acts like a child, I said he is a child. My point is that power doesn't equal skill in battle. The previous hokages have years/decades on Naruto. They are smarter, they know more jutsu, they have fought in more wars.

Even if the summons have to tell you how to win? Like Bunta did against Gaara/Shukaku?

Because the Hokages are better than the sannin? Did Hiruzen pick a sannin to be Yondaime? Nope.

Huh?

What about the dialogue saying that Naruto is almost as fast as Raikage and that Yondaime is faster than Raikage??? And last time I checked, being able to control a bijuu was not the only way to fight a jinchuriki. Did Akatsuki have bijuu controlling powers? No, yet they were able to capture most of the jinchuriki.


In summary, experience and skill don't matter... whoever can super saiyan power up the most wins. /sarcasm

To the summons thing, yes, it still counts as part of their ability.

also, the kage argument is invalid. Jiraiya would far and away beat the third hokage in a fight to the death. Not even a question. It would be the third and enma, vs jiraiya and all his toads, not to mention sage mode.

As to the raikage thing, A: as I said, that was before, not after his power boost he currently has. B: it IS the only hard counter to naruto. We are not talking about jinchuriki in general, we are talking about one specific character. generalizations about the type of character he is are completely irrelevant in this context, because I can counter that entire point simply by saying "none of their strategies worked on naruto". It's just as valid as your claim that "they can beat jinchuriki".

that IS supported by the manga, despite what sharinganheir might think.

and no, it's not about who supersaiyans harder. My point is, experience does not mean **** if you aren't strong enough to use it. naruto's power is so far beyond that of any kage it's laughable to even think they could clash head on. That much has already been proven several times over. Hence, in order for hashirama to have a fair shot, he would have to be able to bind the fox's chakra, which I don't remember if he can bind that much or not.

so many people say that experience is such a big factor, when it honestly is very small. experience is ONLY a determining factor when the other areas are decently comparable.

Originally Posted by SharinganHeir

Chidori, I was going to make a long post like that, but then I remembered I was arguing with Nejifan. The guy doesn't debate using evidence from the manga. He makes statements of opinion that he thinks are fact. Usually it's fun to argue, but he just exhausts me

Nejifan, I would like to point out that RDS is definitely not the only sealing jutsu that stops edo tensei. No one in the war has used RDS, yet we have seen some of kabuto's resurrections get sealed away.

and yet the exact same methods, they used to seal the powerful people kabuto summoned DIDN'T DO JACK **** TO MADARA. that is my point. seriously, it's in the ****ing manga. go read it if you don't believe me. I didn't make it up. It is a proven fact that normal methods of sealing madara cannot work.

The only other ways that we have been shown to seal him are RDS, totsuka sword, which only itachi has, and the pot that traps people with the words they say most often. RDS is the only one of those that is even remotely feasable.

again, that is all evidence from the manga. You can think it's my opinion all you want, but if you learned how to read, you might not look as stupid.

Originally Posted by Earthbullet

so hes the spiritomb of the manga thread?

I have no idea who that is, so it's entirely possible.

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by SharinganHeir

Chidori, I was going to make a long post like that, but then I remembered I was arguing with Nejifan. The guy doesn't debate using evidence from the manga. He makes statements of opinion that he thinks are fact. Usually it's fun to argue, but he just exhausts me

I see that now. There is no point arguing with someone that thinks Jiraiya is stronger than the Hokages.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Chidori

I see that now. There is no point arguing with someone that thinks Jiraiya is stronger than the Hokages.

Last I checked, orochimaru is more powerful than the 3rd hokage as well, so it's not that impressive. Seriously, the 3rd is the weakest of the first 4 kages. We know that to be true. Jiraiya is more powerful than orochimaru. Therefore, jiraiya could beat the third.

the fact that that doesn't make sense to you really speaks volumes about your sense of logic. It is precisely that kind of thinking that I cannot stand.

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

Last I checked, orochimaru is more powerful than the 3rd hokage as well, so it's not that impressive. Seriously, the 3rd is the weakest of the first 4 kages. We know that to be true. Jiraiya is more powerful than orochimaru. Therefore, jiraiya could beat the third.

the fact that that doesn't make sense to you really speaks volumes about your sense of logic. It is precisely that kind of thinking that I cannot stand.

Oh okay, so now Jiraiya is only stronger than Sarutobi instead of them all...

Provide evidence that Oro is "more powerful" than Sarutobi.
Provide evidence that Sarutobi is the weakest of the Hokage.
Provide evidence that Jiraiya is "more powerful" than Oro.
Define "power".
Try not to change the subject.
Try not to contradict yourself.
GO!!!!!!

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by Chidori

Oh okay, so now Jiraiya is only stronger than Sarutobi instead of them all...

Provide evidence that Oro is "more powerful" than Sarutobi.
Provide evidence that Sarutobi is the weakest of the Hokage.
Provide evidence that Jiraiya is "more powerful" than Oro.
Define "power".
Try not to change the subject.
Try not to contradict yourself.
GO!!!!!!

A: do you honestly think that something is only true of explicitly stated by a character? There have been more than enough scenes of orochimaru fighting to know that he is capable of quite a bit. On the contrary, we saw the third go all out in his fight against the edo tensei'd kage's and he honestly was not that impressive (the kage's orochi revived were only a fraction of their normal power.) Therefore, it is a reasonable assessment that Orochimaru is stronger than the third hokage. The same reasoning can be applied to the Jiraiya vs Orochimaru idea. It does not require a direct combat scene between the two in order to accurately assess the power each possesses. For example, we know that orochimaru has less chakra than jiraiya. he also has less potent chakra, as, to our knowledge, he does not possess the sage mode that kabuto did. We also know that the only thing orochimaru has summoned in combat is snakes, and manda is dead, whereby the giant toads that jiraiya summons are alive and well. In addition, no jutsu we have ever seen orochimaru use (save for edo tensei) has been as potent as jiraya's sage jutsu. Now, granted, orochimaru DOES have a wider variety, and the ability to grow out of his own skin (ecdysis or something I believe it's called). But jiraiya has both more power and more stamina from what we have scene. Whether that fact was explicitly stated in the manga is completely irrelevant. Not sure why you have such a hard time with that concept.

It's call logical inference based on previous evidence. You should give it a try sometime. The idea that "It's only true if kishimoto said it's true" is no different than saying that the earth is not round until I prove it is. The earth is round no matter if there is evidence or not. If we could look at the other planets, and monitor space, and see that they were round, we could logically infer that the earth is round because that makes the most sense. Whether or not we could actually see that the earth is round is not at all relevant.

B: "Power" is a slightly ambiguous term, however, when you say that so and so is more powerful than so and so, in general, people are referring to the fact that they could defeat them in a 1v1 fight to the death. That is what I am saying Jiraiya is capable of. He could defeat orochimaru if they fought to the death, no holds barred, no items, just their skills.

C: as for sarutobi being the weakest kage, it was already said that he was weaker than the first and second hokage's, because it was said that they were the two strongest (and i'm not quite as sure about this, but I seem to recall that the first and second are nearly on par when it comes to "power"). We also know that the 4th is capable of defeating the 3rd, based on the fact that the third hokage isn't that fast, and that even raikage, with his speed, couldn't do anything to Minato. Therefore, the only possibility is that the 3rd is the weakest of the four.

[Sai'ix Renkai]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

A: do you honestly think that something is only true of explicitly stated by a character? There have been more than enough scenes of orochimaru fighting to know that he is capable of quite a bit. On the contrary, we saw the third go all out in his fight against the edo tensei'd kage's and he honestly was not that impressive (the kage's orochi revived were only a fraction of their normal power.) Therefore, it is a reasonable assessment that Orochimaru is stronger than the third hokage. The same reasoning can be applied to the Jiraiya vs Orochimaru idea. It does not require a direct combat scene between the two in order to accurately assess the power each possesses. For example, we know that orochimaru has less chakra than jiraiya. he also has less potent chakra, as, to our knowledge, he does not possess the sage mode that kabuto did. We also know that the only thing orochimaru has summoned in combat is snakes, and manda is dead, whereby the giant toads that jiraiya summons are alive and well. In addition, no jutsu we have ever seen orochimaru use (save for edo tensei) has been as potent as jiraya's sage jutsu. Now, granted, orochimaru DOES have a wider variety, and the ability to grow out of his own skin (ecdysis or something I believe it's called). But jiraiya has both more power and more stamina from what we have scene. Whether that fact was explicitly stated in the manga is completely irrelevant. Not sure why you have such a hard time with that concept.

It's call logical inference based on previous evidence. You should give it a try sometime. The idea that "It's only true if kishimoto said it's true" is no different than saying that the earth is not round until I prove it is. The earth is round no matter if there is evidence or not. If we could look at the other planets, and monitor space, and see that they were round, we could logically infer that the earth is round because that makes the most sense. Whether or not we could actually see that the earth is round is not at all relevant.

B: "Power" is a slightly ambiguous term, however, when you say that so and so is more powerful than so and so, in general, people are referring to the fact that they could defeat them in a 1v1 fight to the death. That is what I am saying Jiraiya is capable of. He could defeat orochimaru if they fought to the death, no holds barred, no items, just their skills.

C: as for sarutobi being the weakest kage, it was already said that he was weaker than the first and second hokage's, because it was said that they were the two strongest (and i'm not quite as sure about this, but I seem to recall that the first and second are nearly on par when it comes to "power"). We also know that the 4th is capable of defeating the 3rd, based on the fact that the third hokage isn't that fast, and that even raikage, with his speed, couldn't do anything to Minato. Therefore, the only possibility is that the 3rd is the weakest of the four.

I have to argue your A and your C. When we saw the 3rd fight, we saw him towards the end of his life, where he was probably at his weakest. Orochimaru, on the other hand, has been perfecting body swapping abilities, putting him in younger bodies with a wider chakra pool. We haven't seen 3rd when he was in his prime, and since he was resurrected old, we likely won't. Saying either Jiraiya or Orochimaru could beat him, or even that he was the weakest Kage, is absurd. We can't prove it. Think of this. He was given, above all the other Hokage, the title of "Professor" because he knew every jutsu in the Leaf.

[Chidori]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

A: do you honestly think that something is only true of explicitly stated by a character? There have been more than enough scenes of orochimaru fighting to know that he is capable of quite a bit. On the contrary, we saw the third go all out in his fight against the edo tensei'd kage's and he honestly was not that impressive (the kage's orochi revived were only a fraction of their normal power.When does it say that?) Therefore, it is a reasonable assessment that Orochimaru is stronger than the third hokage. The same reasoning can be applied to the Jiraiya vs Orochimaru idea. It does not require a direct combat scene between the two in order to accurately assess the power each possesses. For example, we know that orochimaru has less chakra than jiraiya. he also has less potent chakra, as, to our knowledge, he does not possess the sage mode that kabuto did. We also know that the only thing orochimaru has summoned in combat is snakes, and manda is dead, whereby the giant toads that jiraiya summons are alive and well So it matters if Manda is dead but not if Jiraiya is???. In addition, no jutsu we have ever seen orochimaru use (save for edo tensei) has been as potent as jiraya's sage jutsu. Now, granted, orochimaru DOES have a wider variety, and the ability to grow out of his own skin (ecdysis or something I believe it's called). But jiraiya has both more power and more stamina from what we have scene. Whether that fact was explicitly stated in the manga is completely irrelevant. Not sure why you have such a hard time with that concept.

It's call logical inference based on previous evidence. You should give it a try sometime. The idea that "It's only true if kishimoto said it's true" is no different than saying that the earth is not round until I prove it is. The earth is round no matter if there is evidence or not. If we could look at the other planets, and monitor space, and see that they were round, we could logically infer that the earth is round because that makes the most sense. Whether or not we could actually see that the earth is round is not at all relevant. But you have to have actual evidence for inference to work.

B: "Power" is a slightly ambiguous term, however, when you say that so and so is more powerful than so and so, in general, people are referring to the fact that they could defeat them in a 1v1 fight to the death. That is what I am saying Jiraiya is capable of. He could defeat orochimaru if they fought to the death, no holds barred, no items, just their skills.

C: as for sarutobi being the weakest kage, it was already said that he was weaker than the first and second hokage's, because it was said that they were the two strongest Yet both of them fighting together couldn't beat Sarutobi(and i'm not quite as sure about this, but I seem to recall that the first and second are nearly on par when it comes to "power"). We also know that the 4th is capable of defeating the 3rd, based on the fact that the third hokage isn't that fast, and that even raikage, with his speed, couldn't do anything to Minato. Therefore, the only possibility is that the 3rd is the weakest of the four. But you said things like skill and experience don't matter only POWER. Now speed is the ultimate way to determine who defeats who??

Responses in bold.