State of the Game Address

[Genre]

Originally Posted by JDragon

lol

Both the PTH/Coils and PTH/Coils/Curse metagames involved a wide variety of ... HUH????

I stopped reading after this. The game for the first several sets was Fire, Fire/X. Fire was completely dominant for a while; outside of even MORE BROKEN decks like five pronged seal (pre-errata). All these decks were brainless, autopilot and boring - it made the game a joke. The rules back then were also bogus, as ninja effects "CUT" into existing chains and other ridiculous stuff. I'm not surprised you're defending the game back then; but I really did hit a boiling point when Chain Lightning came out. The deck abused pre-EoJ and pre-showdown and all this other timing junk; plus it was easy to build and anyone with a pulse played the deck.

I could go on and on, but the fact that the amount of broken cards back then was gigantic AND on top of that the rules were more bogus than they are now, I'd say the game back then was a joke - so I'm going to use Ryan Severin's GOOD argument of "What have you done for me lately?" ... that is, if you were a "good player" back then and aren't performing like you used to, it's because the game increased in quality and integrity and you couldn't keep up, since you can't just slap a metadeck together anymore and assume you'll top. This game takes much more thinking and strategy than it ever has, and the amount of competitive decks in meta is always much higher than it ever used to be back then.

tl;dr the game is much better (superior; by far) than it used to be, so please refrain from trying to justify how "good it was"

[kyuubi rasengan]

Originally Posted by OneWingedAngel

I honestly thought this was someone else.

All you do is annoy your opponent to the point where they don't want to play anymore. You've only just started to get good at this game and that's only because cards are more blatantly broken.

Just read this...you've already been bashed enough for one night so I feel I don't need to beat a dead horse

[JDragon]

Originally Posted by Genre

I stopped reading after this. The game for the first several sets was Fire, Fire/X. Fire was completely dominant for a while; outside of even MORE BROKEN decks like five pronged seal (pre-errata). All these decks were brainless, autopilot and boring - it made the game a joke. The rules back then were also bogus, as ninja effects "CUT" into existing chains and other ridiculous stuff.

Earth/Wind Tempo won the first GenCon Indy event, with Monowater coming in second. The first event Thomas Cao ever topped was using Lightning/Wind in that era. Monofire and Fire/X were also very prevalent due to the power level of Trigram, but weren't oppressive in any way pre-Freedori.

Sure, maybe you thought decks were "brainless, autopilot and boring" - but maybe you were the one getting outplayed in Fire mirror matches because you netdecked your deck and didn't know any better considering how many strategies you weren't aware of.

I'm not surprised you're defending the game back then; but I really did hit a boiling point when Chain Lightning came out. The deck abused pre-EoJ and pre-showdown and all this other timing junk; plus it was easy to build and anyone with a pulse played the deck.

So? Everyone played by the same rules. Sure, part of skill back then was being technical enough to know exactly how to abuse Gaara TN, but it was also about managing the game state against equally skilled players. Naruto OC/SCJ did give the deck a brainless element in some games, but when it wasn't involved,matches against Fire and other power jutsu decks came down to slowly whittling away cards to dodge a game ending jutsu exchange (Shuriken is quite a bit weaker than Trigram!). In the mirror match, without any snipe jutsus available, the key to victory was baiting or forcing the opponent into a stalemate-clearing combat. There were tons of times where I saw great plays offering up Gaara TN as pre-EOJ bait in order to set up a backbreaking Shuriken/Rasengan combo.

I could go on and on, but the fact that the amount of broken cards back then was gigantic AND on top of that the rules were more bogus than they are now, I'd say the game back then was a joke - so I'm going to use Ryan Severin's GOOD argument of "What have you done for me lately?" ... that is, if you were a "good player" back then and aren't performing like you used to, it's because the game increased in quality and integrity and you couldn't keep up, since you can't just slap a metadeck together anymore and assume you'll top. This game takes much more thinking and strategy than it ever has, and the amount of competitive decks in meta is always much higher than it ever used to be back then.

tl;dr the game is much better (superior; by far) than it used to be, so please refrain from trying to justify how "good it was"

First 10 sets - what were the broken cards you're referring to? Trigram? Gaara IP? Nerfed Inherit and APW? Would any of these actually see play today? It's easy to make sweeping genrelizations. Back it up.

What have I done lately? Absolutely nothing - but then again, I haven't played since ANBU and even then it was only twice a year since the metagame before Greedy.dec. But even during that period (and for my entire career), I've played what... one or two "metagame" decks as you call them? It's really not my fault that decks I designed became the metagame.

Pretty sure our Naruto careers overlapped at some point during that time - how did you do during that period? I'm legitimately curious.

Keep in mind I haven't kept up with the game since ANBU, but I see cards like Sasuke Solo and Warhawk and am assuming nothing has changed since the "draw 346352362 cards/make 263246235 chakra/play whole deck no matter your element" metagame.

Still a pretty huge increase in power since AoC and Tora though.

[OdionF.Baby]

I heard 2k barrage was a snipe used in chain lightning

[Genre]

Originally Posted by JDragon

First 10 sets - what were the broken cards you're referring to? Trigram? Gaara IP? Nerfed Inherit and APW? Would any of these actually see play today? It's easy to make sweeping genrelizations. Back it up.

Gaara IP (only because his jutsus were absurd), Kiba MBC, Trigram, Vortex, APW, Inherits, Ino, Choji, Gaara TN, The One Who Lives Within, etc, etc... So many broken cards back then in comparison to what there is today. The rules are also fair/balanced in comparison to what they were, so it doesn't assume that if you're the one attacking that your Third APW goes off automatically without being possibly chained to because you're the attacker. It doesn't matter if these cards would see play or not today; they were broken for their time. Cards like Shimon are broken right now in today's meta, but that's only because of the block cardpool (in Unlimited, Shimon is fine).

What Earth/Wind tempo are you talking about?? Classroom format? That isn't a real event. I understand there were other random decks out there like monowater... but Fire completely dominated and had the best cards for at least the first 5 sets. I would say the game after the second Gencon became rather colorful, as so many meta decks came into the fray (there was a huge variety at Gencon that year Thomas won... a lot of the same types of cards, but tons of different ways to build a deck). The game got poop the next Gencon around, and yet again, and finally balanced somewhat this past year... And that trend should continue into this year.

[JDragon]

Originally Posted by Genre

Gaara IP (only because his jutsus were absurd), Kiba MBC, Trigram, Vortex, APW, Inherits, Ino, Choji, Gaara TN, The One Who Lives Within, etc, etc... So many broken cards back then in comparison to what there is today.

Out of those cards, I disagree with you for sure on Gaara IP, Kiba MBC (this one especially), Trigram, Vortex, Choji, TN, and TOWLW (not in first 10 sets). All powerful cards, to be sure, but nothing like Shika U, Secret Meeting, or even pre-nerf APW/Inherits where there was just nothing you could do about it; you were going to take your reaming and like it.

The rules are also fair/balanced in comparison to what they were, so it doesn't assume that if you're the one attacking that your Third APW goes off automatically without being possibly chained to because you're the attacker.

Yes, but you could also be the blocker. It was just part of the game - do you commit to a block with your APW and try to out-jutsu them? Do you chump block to try to stave off a Trigram into BR on your APW? What if they have ES? It's not like some players had special rules powers that let them play by different rules.

It doesn't matter if these cards would see play or not today; they were broken for their time. Cards like Shimon are broken right now in today's meta, but that's only because of the block cardpool (in Unlimited, Shimon is fine).

Well, then we're in agreement that the current game features a much higher power level. Out of all the cards you mentioned earlier, the only two that forced a one deck or one strategy metagame was APW and Inherits. Nothing like the later metagames where we faced a string of "play Dreams or lose, play No-Hand Water or lose, play ANBU or lose, play super card draw or lose, etc."

What Earth/Wind tempo are you talking about?? Classroom format? That isn't a real event.

The first GenCon event with PTH/Coils, won by Dave Moll.

I understand there were other random decks out there like monowater... but Fire completely dominated and had the best cards for at least the first 5 sets.

I just pointed out examples of how Fire wasn't as dominant as you make it out to be (for sets 1-3 at least, 4-6 was 100% Fire). I was actually playing during that ancient era, you know. Fire was certainly tier 1, but there were multiple viable alternatives.

I would say the game after the second Gencon became rather colorful, as so many meta decks came into the fray (there was a huge variety at Gencon that year Thomas won... a lot of the same types of cards, but tons of different ways to build a deck).

Which year?

The game got poop the next Gencon around, and yet again, and finally balanced somewhat this past year... And that trend should continue into this year.

To me, the most "brainless" metagames are those filled with card advantage missions/ninjas requiring very little or no setup that no matter what can keep a steady stream of cards coming at no cost to the power level of their other cards. For example, the ANBU metagame had a critical mass of Loss, Make Out Paradise, Monster Research, JLDC, KNS, Naruto Clone, etc. that just made every game a c****er**** of card draw and board spam.

While I do feel like there's nowhere to go but up from that, I see cards like Warhawk and don't feel like anything has really changed. Would you care to share with me the mission lineup and card draw ninjas some of the best current decks have? Like I said, I'm probably just as ill-informed of the current metagame as you are of the past, and want to make sure I'm not missing out on a return to the game's roots.

[Genre]

When I listed cards like Kiba MBC as being "broken", I was insinuating that you *had* to play it in every deck to be competitive because it was a staple ninja that fetched another free ninja and became a great chumper who grew into double headed wolf OR (later) Kiba/Aka...

TOWLW = Similar to Warhawk in that it gives you a gigantic hand presence; but can plus harder than Warhawk

LOL the 1st Gencon event doesn't count (PTH/Coils)... that's like saying the first Texas Hold'em event and its players are relevant in comparison to today's Xthousand multimillion dollar pool world championships.


All metas will have its share of broken cards, but the past had much more (and bogus rulings/timings). The point I'm trying to make is THAT <--- plus, that the game is much better than it was; but still bettering. It's the best game it's been in a while.

The broken cards of this block meta are Ino Childhood (by far the best card in the game), Warhawk, Naraka Path...

EDIT: I also didn't mean to come off as condescending or arrogant when I said "What have you done for me lately" - I was making a general statement which insinuated what Ryan Severin said: that *many* good players were good back then because they blatantly abused exploits, timings, rulings, broken ninja effects, etc... (for example, the Take it Again! + Here Comes Test Proctor Anko hand loop deckout combo....) -- now it's more of playstyle, skill and deckBUILDING (which you and thomas do excellently well, and something you've done well all your career - five pronged seal)... the game has become much more skillful in regards to individual players' deck building (sideboard tech) and skill during gameplay. It's no longer "I attack you with an OC ninja then pre EOJ shuriken, Gaara TN then during EoJ snipe your two ninjas with both of my Naruto 2k barrages... Alot of "good" players back then have fallen from grace because the game isn't just a game where you can take a great deck (that takes skill) and attempt to play for once the entire year and assume to top (for example, a player who's been out of the game for a while would have a lot of trouble piloting a revitalize deck, which is a tier 1 deck)...

[MJM]

The more NE players post, the more I realize I really do not agree with 90% of their opinions.

[JDragon]

Originally Posted by Genre

When I listed cards like Kiba MBC as being "broken", I was insinuating that you *had* to play it in every deck to be competitive because it was a staple ninja that fetched another free ninja and became a great chumper who grew into double headed wolf OR (later) Kiba/Aka..

TOWLW = Similar to Warhawk in that it gives you a gigantic hand presence; but can plus harder than Warhawk

Kiba MBC barely saw any play before the squad came out. TOWLW wasn't in the first 10 sets (which I was asking for samples from). Was ANC set 11 or 12? That was when stuff started going downhill.

LOL the 1st Gencon event doesn't count (PTH/Coils)... that's like saying the first Texas Hold'em event and its players are relevant in comparison to today's Xthousand multimillion dollar pool world championships.

It does count if you're trying to say that Fire was oppressively dominant during that era, when it didn't even take either of the two spots in one of the first "large" events.

All metas will have its share of broken cards, but the past had much more (and bogus rulings/timings). The point I'm trying to make is THAT <--- plus, that the game is much better than it was; but still bettering. It's the best game it's been in a while.

Yeah I understand your point, I'm just saying that there weren't nearly as many truly broken cards during the first 10 sets as there were during the next 10 (and possibly even now). Beyond the Freedori era, all the "broken" cards were at least mostly interactive - nothing like the blowout cards Secret Meeting, Shika U, or the "massage your deck" metagame.

The broken cards of this block meta are Ino Childhood (by far the best card in the game), Warhawk, Naraka Path...

What are the missions people usually play?

EDIT: I also didn't mean to come off as condescending or arrogant when I said "What have you done for me lately" - I was making a general statement which insinuated what Ryan Severin said: that *many* good players were good back then because they blatantly abused exploits, timings, rulings, broken ninja effects, etc... (for example, the Take it Again! + Here Comes Test Proctor Anko hand loop deckout combo....) -- now it's more of playstyle, skill and deckBUILDING (which you and thomas do excellently well, and something you've done well all your career - five pronged seal)... the game has become much more skillful in regards to individual players' deck building (sideboard tech) and skill during gameplay. It's no longer "I attack you with an OC ninja then pre EOJ shuriken, Gaara TN then during EoJ snipe your two ninjas with both of my Naruto 2k barrages... Alot of "good" players back then have fallen from grace because the game isn't just a game where you can take a great deck (that takes skill) and attempt to play for once the entire year and assume to top (for example, a player who's been out of the game for a while would have a lot of trouble piloting a revitalize deck, which is a tier 1 deck)...

I disagree. It's easy to cherry pick examples - I could say, for instance, "hurrdurr Warhawk into Naraka Path into Ino omg brainless" (I have no idea what any of those cards do besides Warhawk). Amongst the top players, the level of gameplay hasn't really changed that much. Everyone played by the same rules, most games were decided by deckbuilding and playskill, some games were brainless blowouts due to unfortunate or fortunate starting hands - and that's still the case.

Bring back Joe, Thomas, Eric, myself, or any of the other players that consistently topped and give us that Revitalize deck, some rules updates, and enough spare time to practice - I'd be very optimistic about the result. It's not like the game has changed so dramatically as to make skills developed over countless hours of playing a variety of card games useless. The game, like most other card games, is still about resource management, game state management, deckbuilding, and luck.

I'd venture, however, that it's a lot easier to make a consistent and competitive deck when the amount of card draw/multi-element present in the metagame lets you consistently hit your best cards. For example look at the mission + card draw ninja/jutsu lineup of past decks,

Rush

3 Ninja Academy
3 Three Man Squads
3 After the Battle

3 Kunai
3 Cross Shaped Shuriken

or

Lightning Ramp
3 One Morning
3 Inner Sakura
3 Disaster of the Nine Tailed Fox Spirit
1 Ichiraku Noodle Shop

3 Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu
2 Harem Jutsu

or

Steam
3 Tora
3 Appearance of Unknown Rivals
2 Bingo Book

3 Trigram
3 Vortex
1 Sharingan Eye

or

Tide of Blossoms
3 Sakura's Decision
3 Tide of the Deadly Combat
1 Lone Avenger
1 Tora

3 Trigram
2 Wind Style: Great Breakthrough
2 Sharingan Eye

or

Freedori
1 Sakura ASV (combo'd with COP to get cards back)

3 Tora
3 Inherits
1 Lone Avenger

3 Trigram
3 Chidori
2 Sharingan Eye

or

Hybrid NVS
3 Naruto vs Sasuke
3 The Ninth Match

3 Shadow Clone Jutsu
3 Paper Bomb
3 Unexpected Attack

vs

ANBU Rush
X Naruto L4H/Gaara Childhood/Messenger Ninja/TA ninjas
3 Hotaru
3 Naruto Clone
2 KNS
3 Bubble Dude

3 Make-Out Paradise
3 Monster Research
2 JLDC
X Loss, Messenger Ninja

3 Fear by Genjutsu
3 Infinite Embrace
3 Petals
etc.

The direction I see is the ability to mash a ton of multi-element ninjas/missions that draw cards into a deck and still remain highly consistent in being able to play the most powerful jutsus. Compare that to the trade-offs demonstrated by the other decks - lots of minus cards to support powerful jutsus, or terrible jutsus to support powerful missions. I feel like a lot of the delicate balancing required in deckbuilding, as well as differentiation between the elements, is eliminated when decks can literally play whatever they feel like playing.

That's just one man's (lengthy) opinion though. For others, drawing their whole deck and throwing haymakers left and right might be the greatest gaming experience they've ever had. It doesn't make people worse players for not enjoying that though.

[spiritomb]

Originally Posted by OneWingedAngel

I didn't mean to get you and Alex mixed up. I always do that for some reason.



He's using some else's account. He doesn't care if he gets banned.

I've seen the quality of odions posts in the past. They are subpar at best. I figured it wasn't Ryan's real account. Though I can't seem to remember his real account.