Naruto 611

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Tylar_Bandai

It seems vastly appropriate that I was listening to "We Are Here To Change the World" by Michael Jackson while reading this chapter..

Are you allowed to condone this? Should I report this? I'm really confused here.

[ACTION *******]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

My point was not that it wont, simply that it should not. I look at everything from a logical standpoint. Fiction included. Even though I don't expect fiction to follow the same rules as the real world, I do expect consistency within the world that said fiction has proposed. I hate it when rules get disregarded for 'convenience', but it happens.

Like i said, it SHOULDN'T change things, but I'm entirely certain that it will.

I disagree whole heartedly in that fiction is where you have fun and throw logic out the window. its where the impossible happens and seemingly impossible odds can be overcome. as for inconsistency, there would be nothing inconsistent about this group beating the bad guys because the badguys havent fought this group, at least in its entirety, before. and there are potentially very powerful jutsu on their side, such as the various yamanaka jutsu potentially screwing with their movements or even taking a power player completely out of the fight temporarily as we actually saw happen.

and even since the beginning of the manga, teamwork had an emphasis. and then recently with itachi, or was it nagato i forget now, telling naruto to not take all the responsibility on by himself and to share it with his friends and to not end up like the secluded friendless matobito. a group surpassing the "one" has been established since forever.

its only inconsistent in your mind because you cant accept madara or the 10 tails being beaten as of now. im not encessarily defending the manga, but if you are going to be upset, be upset at the correct things at least.

[Sai'ix Renkai]

Originally Posted by ACTION *******

I disagree whole heartedly in that fiction is where you have fun and throw logic out the window. there would be nothing inconsistent about this group beating the bad guys because the badguys havent fought this group, at elast in its entirety, before. and there are potentially very powerful jutsu on their side, such as the various yamanaka jutsu potentially screwing with their movements or even taking a power player completely out of the fight temporarily.

and even since the beginning of the manga, teamwork had an emphasis. and then recently with itachi, or was it nagato i forget now, telling naruto to not take all the responsibility on by himself and to share it with his friends and to not end up like the secluded friendless matobito

its only inconsistent in your mind because you cant accept madara or the 10 tails being beaten as of now.

Sadly, that makes sense. I want a tragic ending. I don't want the most powerful being in existence to be beaten by a bunch of ninja who just recently learned to work together. I want 90% of them to die. Including Kakashi, Guy, and Sakura, but her for selfish reasons. Those being she's useless.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by ACTION *******

I disagree whole heartedly in that fiction is where you have fun and throw logic out the window. its where the impossible happens and seemingly impossible odds can be overcome. as for inconsistency, there would be nothing inconsistent about this group beating the bad guys because the badguys havent fought this group, at least in its entirety, before. and there are potentially very powerful jutsu on their side, such as the various yamanaka jutsu potentially screwing with their movements or even taking a power player completely out of the fight temporarily as we actually saw happen.

and even since the beginning of the manga, teamwork had an emphasis. and then recently with itachi, or was it nagato i forget now, telling naruto to not take all the responsibility on by himself and to share it with his friends and to not end up like the secluded friendless matobito. a group surpassing the "one" has been established since forever.

its only inconsistent in your mind because you cant accept madara or the 10 tails being beaten as of now. im not encessarily defending the manga, but if you are going to be upset, be upset at the correct things at least.

I never said fiction wasn't for fun, but logic is not in opposition to fun. Impossible is fine, as long as it is consistently within the rules of it's own universe. For example, Dragonball Z. It is impossible for Vegeta's power level to have been as high as it was against frieza. you can track the math of what his power level was after each time he died. it literally started increasing by twenty and thirty fold, or more, where as, the first time, it didn't even increase by 50%. There is no logic there. it's inconsistant, and therefore unacceptable. I'm ok with power creep, on a small scale, and IF it gets explained well. Random power creep irritates me.

yes, teamwork is important, but on the 'effectiveness' scale, 5 kage together, are a more potent force than this alliance. At this point, the alliance is tired. It's like assembling 1000 elephants, which seems powerful at first, to fight the Colossus at Rhodes. The Colossus cannot be beaten by elephants, regardless of numbers. I'm not a madara fanboy, I don't even like him, but I acknowledge his power. As you yourself said, he has unlimited chakra. Not only that, he can use susano'o indefinately because of that, and he also cannot be killed.

as for breaking his jutsu, as far as we know, it was a "one and done" deal, not a currently ongoing jutsu. The only way I can think of for them to do that, would be to force madara to use some jutsu himself, much like itachi did against kabuto, but he could only do that because of sharingan. Besides, Genjutsu wont work on madara.

I'm not referring to the idea of a group beating an individual as being in consistant. I'm referring to power scale. an 1000 poodles no matter how hard they try, can never kill captain america. I don't like it, but that's basically the power scale at this point.

Honestly? Madara can create a forest of UNLIMITED size, or summon another meteor (because it wont kill obito), or use susano'o to kill everything in front of him with the sword, etc. I don't see any way for them to beat him. Susano'o into giant meteor = gg.

[Suna.kills.you]

Naruto is going to do a kamehameha lol. biju blasts and he manages to pull off the chakra cannon. its like cell saga lol. we completely skipped goku's story (the fourth hokage) and went to gohan (naruto). but imagine if the whole story started with the fourth hokage growing up. him saving a girl that fights as a child and marrying her as an adult. having a son. dying. lol. coming back at the perfect moment in a fight while a spirit XD

[Earthbullet]

Originally Posted by Suna.kills.you

Naruto is going to do a kamehameha lol. biju blasts and he manages to pull off the chakra cannon. its like cell saga lol. we completely skipped goku's story (the fourth hokage) and went to gohan (naruto). but imagine if the whole story started with the fourth hokage growing up. him saving a girl that fights as a child and marrying her as an adult. having a son. dying. lol. coming back at the perfect moment in a fight while a spirit XD

no no madara is going to betray obito who is the going to attack madara giving naruto and sasuke an opening to kill madara.

[ACTION *******]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

I never said fiction wasn't for fun, but logic is not in opposition to fun. Impossible is fine, as long as it is consistently within the rules of it's own universe. For example, Dragonball Z. It is impossible for Vegeta's power level to have been as high as it was against frieza. you can track the math of what his power level was after each time he died. it literally started increasing by twenty and thirty fold, or more, where as, the first time, it didn't even increase by 50%. There is no logic there. it's inconsistant, and therefore unacceptable. I'm ok with power creep, on a small scale, and IF it gets explained well. Random power creep irritates me.

yes, teamwork is important, but on the 'effectiveness' scale, 5 kage together, are a more potent force than this alliance. At this point, the alliance is tired. It's like assembling 1000 elephants, which seems powerful at first, to fight the Colossus at Rhodes. The Colossus cannot be beaten by elephants, regardless of numbers. I'm not a madara fanboy, I don't even like him, but I acknowledge his power. As you yourself said, he has unlimited chakra. Not only that, he can use susano'o indefinately because of that, and he also cannot be killed.

as for breaking his jutsu, as far as we know, it was a "one and done" deal, not a currently ongoing jutsu. The only way I can think of for them to do that, would be to force madara to use some jutsu himself, much like itachi did against kabuto, but he could only do that because of sharingan. Besides, Genjutsu wont work on madara.

I'm not referring to the idea of a group beating an individual as being in consistant. I'm referring to power scale. an 1000 poodles no matter how hard they try, can never kill captain america. I don't like it, but that's basically the power scale at this point.

Honestly? Madara can create a forest of UNLIMITED size, or summon another meteor (because it wont kill obito), or use susano'o to kill everything in front of him with the sword, etc. I don't see any way for them to beat him. Susano'o into giant meteor = gg.

5 kage being stronger than the entire allience is actually rpetty iffy given that there are some rpetty potent ninjas there. afterall naruto and B are there and they are easily on kage level. kakashi is allegedly kage level, regardless of whether or not he's necessarily on the level of the 5 current kage. guy is awesome and hasnt used his most powerful moves. having thousands of even semi competent people on top of that? yeah I'd say that surpasses those 5

not to mention its not only about power. sure madara is capable of just nuking them and calling it a day. and he can supersano and take them out with a swing. but clearly his personality is against him auto ending it, otherwise, he would have done it by now, and done it against the kage. remember when he said he wasnt going to use supersano against the kage anymore cuz he already showed it to them? that kind of mindset is whats going to allow him to be defeated.

you are underestimating the alliance and clearly don't understand the evil doers folly. they always end up talking or standing there letting the enemy power up, or refuse to insta nuke them. since you brought up DBZ, virtually all their villains are perfect examples. freeza for instance was many times more powerful than goku for the majority of their fight and only started really trying for real when goku attained super saiyan and was capable of defeating him. the good guys in DBZ should have lost in basically every arc, but due to dumb villains, they didnt

even in naruto its the same way. gaara would have crushed naruto and sasuke, but he was playing with sasuke and then did a dumb thing against naruto and put his friends in danger, thus allowing him to enter main character mode. even earlier, zabuza should have crushed team 7 as soon as kakashi was dumb enough to jump in the water (really kakashi...come on.), but he was playing with his food and his food bit him back and he lost because of it. this situation will be no different.

infinite chakra means nothing if you aren't constantly spamming super jutsu. if you aren't, you may as well simply have abnormally high, but still very much finite, chakra levels...basically naruto, only he still spams lol. he has the advantage, and in theory SHOULDN'T lose, if he was smart. villains are dumb. so he'll lose. and theres nothing inconsistent about that. anad like i said before, im not necessarily expecting them to totally overwhelm them with raw power. like i said, sealing jutsu and the like are very possible. this isnt a straight power level vs power level situation.

this just really seems like a case of you being bothered and upset simply for the sake of being so.

[Nejifan]

Originally Posted by ACTION *******

5 kage being stronger than the entire allience is actually rpetty iffy given that there are some rpetty potent ninjas there. afterall naruto and B are there and they are easily on kage level. kakashi is allegedly kage level, regardless of whether or not he's necessarily on the level of the 5 current kage. guy is awesome and hasnt used his most powerful moves. having thousands of even semi competent people on top of that? yeah I'd say that surpasses those 5

not to mention its not only about power. sure madara is capable of just nuking them and calling it a day. and he can supersano and take them out with a swing. but clearly his personality is against him auto ending it, otherwise, he would have done it by now, and done it against the kage. remember when he said he wasnt going to use supersano against the kage anymore cuz he already showed it to them? that kind of mindset is whats going to allow him to be defeated.

you are underestimating the alliance and clearly don't understand the evil doers folly. they always end up talking or standing there letting the enemy power up, or refuse to insta nuke them. since you brought up DBZ, virtually all their villains are perfect examples. freeza for instance was many times more powerful than goku for the majority of their fight and only started really trying for real when goku attained super saiyan and was capable of defeating him. the good guys in DBZ should have lost in basically every arc, but due to dumb villains, they didnt

even in naruto its the same way. gaara would have crushed naruto and sasuke, but he was playing with sasuke and then did a dumb thing against naruto and put his friends in danger, thus allowing him to enter main character mode. even earlier, zabuza should have crushed team 7 as soon as kakashi was dumb enough to jump in the water (really kakashi...come on.), but he was playing with his food and his food bit him back and he lost because of it. this situation will be no different.

infinite chakra means nothing if you aren't constantly spamming super jutsu. if you aren't, you may as well simply have abnormally high, but still very much finite, chakra levels...basically naruto, only he still spams lol. he has the advantage, and in theory SHOULDN'T lose, if he was smart. villains are dumb. so he'll lose. and theres nothing inconsistent about that. anad like i said before, im not necessarily expecting them to totally overwhelm them with raw power. like i said, sealing jutsu and the like are very possible. this isnt a straight power level vs power level situation.

this just really seems like a case of you being bothered and upset simply for the sake of being so.

A: it should have been obvious that I wasn't referring to B, naruto, kakashi, and guy when I said the ninja alliance.. The only logical conclusion was that I was referring to the people who had just shown up.

B: They already tried to seal madara once. he got out of it. that isn't going to work.

C: my point is in the confidance of the alliance. Obviously madara has arrogance issues. My point is, while villians are dumb, it is completely illogical for the heroes to bank on that idea, because to them, he is incredibly smart. It's only to us, as readers, that it's obvious that madara is stupid in holding back.

My point is that, based on how powerful the 3 enemies are, it is foolish of the alliance to be confident, because in a full out confrontation, no holds barred, which, in THEIR minds, this should be, they don't have even a slim chance of victory. THEY have no reason to believe that any of them will hold back.

[ACTION *******]

Originally Posted by Nejifan

A: it should have been obvious that I wasn't referring to B, naruto, kakashi, and guy when I said the ninja alliance.. The only logical conclusion was that I was referring to the people who had just shown up.

no, i know what you meant, but those guys ARE part of the fight. basically its more or less the equivalent of having the kage PLUS all the new guys showing up, meaning that the kage alone not being able to do it is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Nejifan

B: They already tried to seal madara once. he got out of it. that isn't going to work.

if at first you don't succeed, try again with the main character during a more climactic moment. not to mention thats simply 1 possibility, there are others. for starters sasuke could show up with that anti life equation he got from that dude who knows everything. you are being completely inflexible and narrow minded. you refuse to get past madaras power level

Originally Posted by Nejifan

C: my point is in the confidance of the alliance. Obviously madara has arrogance issues. My point is, while villians are dumb, it is completely illogical for the heroes to bank on that idea, because to them, he is incredibly smart. It's only to us, as readers, that it's obvious that madara is stupid in holding back.

THEY arent banking on that idea. i dont recall ever reading anyone in the manga say "its ok guys, we got this. villains are stupid". if you recall, I'm the one who said that. not naruto. not shika. not kiba. me. they arent banking on it. they are banking on friendship and teamwork and the heart of the cards

Originally Posted by Nejifan

My point is that, based on how powerful the 3 enemies are, it is foolish of the alliance to be confident, because in a full out confrontation, no holds barred, which, in THEIR minds, this should be, they don't have even a slim chance of victory. THEY have no reason to believe that any of them will hold back.

faith, morale, and optimism go a long way. if you dont think you can win, then its impossible even if there truly is a chance,r regardless of how small. it all goes out the window if you give up in your mind. and on top of that, they have no choice but to fight. if they dont its game over. they are up against a wall. surrender isn't really an option.

not to mention the guys who just showed up, for the most part, haven't witnessed what the kage did. they didnt see him drop two meteors by twitching his nose. they didnt see him chop up a mountain by scratching his junk, and they didnt see him just utterly wreck their leaders. and they have superior numbers. ignorance + superior numbers = confidence. therefore they arent in 'pants crapping mode' just yet. and if they do get there, naruto will go into inspirational mode like he's done since forever.

[MJM]

I hate it when these two, among the others, come in and decide to debate Naruto through huge posts.