Manga Debate Archives

[Sharingan_Warrior5693]

Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)

Team 4ThePwn: You are correct that both are similar when it comes to spotting jutsu, but as you'll come to find in our closing statement, the Byakugan does so much more. Also, regardless of functionality, seeing more is still better than seeing less. With the Byakugan, you can watch multiple targets readying jutsu, while the Sharingan has a smaller range to work with.

Now on the topic of elemental affinity, you must understand that there's nothing wrong with only being able to copy jutsu of the user's own affinity, we were simply saying that there is likely a limit. You say it seems unlikely that Kakashi would not be able to use even a basic fire jutsu, but then, wouldn't he have had better methods to counter Kakuzu if he really had copied jutsu from every element?

You also say that looking away from an opponent's eyes is foolish, but allowing oneself to be trapped in genjutsu is even more foolish. While it is true that it would be tough to be effective using a new method, given the options, Guy's method was still the best at the time and we are merely saying that there is a way to counter the Sharingan, not that it is a universal, 100% effective method.

On the topic of taijutsu, there are a few things for us to say. First, slightly off topic, the Raikage is named A, not E. We don't actually even know Bee's speed yet, but we can agree that he is fast. Still, while A and Bee are indeed fast, that doesn't mean that they should be the benchmark for what it takes to hit a Sharingan-user. There's still the fact that Zabuza did get in a clean hit on Kakashi. They fought on a pretty even level during their first encounter, you can't discount that. His 4 speed was enough to land a ht on Kakashi, an experienced Sharingan-user with the same speed.

Seriously, still with the Lee thing? It really isn't relevant to this conversation, but it does show the level of delusion you guys are under if you think that Sasuke had any way to escape receiving the Lotus. There was no reason at all for Sasuke to let himself get between halfway to death. For starters, he's too proud for that. Then there's the fact that Sasuke's reaction was basically "what sorcery is this?" That's not the reaction of a man that has the situation under control. The one thing it does do is show the limitations of the two tomoe Sharingan. Still, that's not really what we're talking about, so we'll move on.

The stat pool that we created is a bit better for the Uchiha, but that's because Uchiha tend to have that sword of "shape" to their stats. The stats were just to put an end to the conversation of what constitutes average, so there would be no more of you using Hinata for our example and Itachi for your example. Still, the stats are fair and given what we've seen, the Hyuuga has all the proper statistical values to best the Uchiha in battle. On that note, it is true that from the ninja we've seen, the Uchiha have produced better ninja, but that still speaks nothing of averages or standards. Sasuke, Itachi, and Madara are all extremely powerful, but that speaks nothing of where characters like Fugaku, Shisui, Tekka, Yashiro, and Inabi stand in comparison to the known Hyuuga, or even the clan in general. It is nice to see that you accept our stats though, because we have all the stats that we need for victory. Observe:

Ninjutsu: You win. Congratulations on winning in ninjutsu, a stat that Hyuuga hardly need to focus on.
Taijutsu: We win. Beating us here, in our "element" would have been detrimental, unlike ninjutsu.
Genjutsu: You win. Same deal as ninjutsu.
Intelligence: You win, but not by an extreme amount. Anyway, Neji is a 3 in intelligence, even as Jounin, so it's not bad.
Strength: You win. It is the Gentle Fist, Strength is irrelevant.
Speed: We tied. Zabuza proved equal speed, and more importantly, 4 in that stat, is enough for a clean hit on even an experienced Sharingan-user. After all, we only need a glancing hit to do damage.
Stamina: We win because the Uchiha are shown to have rather low stamina, which is important, especially if a fight drags out.
Seal: We tied, but this stat is fairly irrelevant for both of us here, so whatever. At best, it would be used to tell what sort of jutsu is coming.

It's really funny that you only take the stats we provided into account, completely ignoring techniques. Certainly, that sounds like the type of thing that PsychoKarin would say; he is in love with stats so very much. You should consider that we've seen many times that stats are not the only relevant factor, they are simply a gauge by which to measure people's abilities relative to others. Shikamaru vs. Hidan, Sasuke vs. Deidara, and any fight with Naruto are a few examples where stats alone did not decide everything. Then there are people like Rock Lee who are horrible in many stats, but outstanding in a few key fields. In our closing statement, you will see how a Byakugan-user can counter a Sharingan-user.

You also underestimate the value of experience. Firstly, experience gives a Byakugan-user better range, which is never a bad thing. Whether it be scouting ahead to discover an ambush, so that their team won't die, or watching the changing room from the comfort of one's own home instead of at the bathhouse, range is always a good thing. It is true that the Byakugan relies less on experience, but it doesn't change the fact that the time it takes to manifest the Sharingan is still a weakness. It also isn't up to the user when it manifests, because ninja don't exactly get to pick and choose their missions. Naruto was a special case when he asked for a better mission during the Zabuza arc and everyone showed great surprise and mortification when he did so. Most people are not as shameless as Naruto is and would simply follow the orders of the Hokage, regardless of boredom, because a ninja is supposed to be a tool. And how does your Obito example make sense? He was a Chuunin during a time of war and he was teamed up with Kakashi and Minato, why would he not be going on dangerous missions? You Minato got a flee on site order from the Rock because he was always picking weeds? No, it's because he killed a lot of guys. You think Kakashi became a Jounin at 13 by capturing escaped cats? It's doubtful that the Daimyou's wife has that much political clout.

You're just making things up about the detail thing. Your example assume you have the same amount of perceptive ability as a Byakugan-user. There's no evidence that ever shows a Byakugan-user caught off guard because of details, nor is there anything to suggest that the Sharingan is better at picking up details the Byakugan might miss. Quite the contrary, even when Neji was being attacked from all sides by Kidoumaru, the only attacks he missed where the ones from his blind spot, so what makes you think otherwise? And saying that Noticing a Shadow Clone would stop Neji from losing is kind of foolish, considering his Byakugan was deactivated and it can't even tell Shadow Clones from a real person anyway. Though it would have been useful to see through him and see the hole, though as we said, his Byakugan was not active.

We have a serious question for you guys and we'd like you to answer honestly, either in this thread or via PM. Do you guys work together at all? Do you put in any effort? Because you consistently take a week's time and continuously churn out really poor responses that are really just repeats of your last response. Do you do research? Where's your evidence? You guys just say things and we're left to confirm whether or not it is true. Now we can understand that you might have some busy times, but it's not like we don't too. We still find the time to at least talk about the subject daily, even when it is your turn. Please try to step up your game, because this is just getting sad

[Sharingan_Warrior5693]

Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)

Team 4ThePwn's Closing Statment: The Byakugan and the Sharingan, the two premier doujutsu of Konoha. Throughout this debate we have provided what we feel to be solid evidence that the Byakugan is the better of the two. We will now take this opportunity to reiterate that evidence.

In a one-on-one battle, we feel that the Byakugan-user would be able to defeat a Sharingan-user of similar power for the following reasons.

1. The Heavenly Spin is more than enough to handle any fire jutsu the Sharingan user might have and the ability to see the flow of chakra into the chest and through the mouth would be plenty of warning for any Byakugan-user. The same can also be said if the Sharingan-user attempts to use any sort of projectile weapons.

2. A Byakugan-user would be able to see a Sharingan-user focus chakra into their eyes to use genjutsu and then it would be child's play to dispel it with their precision chakra control or simply by injuring themselves.

3. If the Sharingan-user attempted string manipulation, they would find that the Byakugan-user could simply run chakra through the string, disabling their hands in a similar way Kidoumaru was injured in his fight with Neji. As a note, we can assume that it is possible to run chakra through the strings because we've seen many weapons in the past become infused with chakra, even a kunai in Chapter 49, Page 12.

4. We've given examples of instances where even a three tomoe Sharingan-user is hit, so we feel it would be quite possible for a Byakugan-user of similar speed to land even a few glancing blows against the Sharingan-user, thereby disabling chakra flow to those areas and doing massive internal damage with even glancing blows. And that's all before we even begin to talk about 64 Palms.

In a team battle, Byakugan-user still has the advantage for the following reasons.

1. The Byakugan-user can instantly detect any genjutsu placed on allies. He could also warn his allies when the Sharingan-user is focusing chakra to their eyes, so that they can look always from the eyes at that instant. In addition, the allies can free the Byakugan-user from any particularly powerful genjutsu if need be.

2. Byakugan-users have a better time against multiple opponents than Sharingan-users because they can watch all of the opponents, protecting themselves from surprise attacks. In addition, they can use the Heavenly Spin if multiple opponent's come at them at once. Conversely, nothing about the Sharingan makes it any more suited for multiple opponents than a normal eye.

3. Having allies means that the Byakugan-user may attack together with his allies, using them as a distraction to land cleaner hits.

While the Sharingan is indeed formidable in combat, out of combat, the Byakugan has a suite of applications that the Sharingan just doesn't have. Here are some of those uses that enrich the Byakugan-user's life:

1. Cheat on tests or read enemy documents.
2. Scout ahead on missions without splitting up.
3. Impossible to ambush a Byakugan-user while it is active.
4. Diagnose injuries in the field.
5. Analyze enemy fortifications from a safe distance.
6. Locate targets from great distances and through obstacles.
7. Identify enemy tools and weaponry.
8. Greater insight than the Sharingan, as stated in Chapter 78, Page 13.
9. See through walls for private, personal uses.
10. Quickly search for lost or misplaced objects.
11. Identify genjutsu.
12. Spy on a target.
13. Control the flow of a person's chakra.

Compare that to the Sharingan's meager list of non-combat abilities:
1. See Chakra. Byakugan does it better.
2. Identify Genjutsu.
3. Cheat on a test, via copying. No way of verifying if what is being copied is correct. Difficult to correct if wrong.
4. Learn jutsu faster.
5. Learn to a physical action, i.e. dance, cook, etc.

It's pretty clear which has a broader range of non-combat uses.

Let's analyze the weaknesses of both now, shall we? Genjutsu, the ability to copy and analyze all forms of jutsu, the ability to see chakra and identify genjutsu, and the ability to read an opponent's muscle movements are all great abilities, but they are the extent of the Sharingan's power and for the most part, they can be countered. Genjutsu can be countered, which is especially easy for a team to do and considering the majority of the ninja world operates in teams, it is not difficult to do so. We know that the number of jutsu a person has is not important, but rather the important thing is how a person uses what they have, as we have seen countless times with Naruto. The ability to see chakra cant really be countered, but the Byakugan does do it better. The ability to read an opponent's movements is also great, but it can be countered by speed and taijutsu. On the other hand, the Byakugan has relatively few weaknesses. It has a blind spot, which can be filled with chakra to compensate for it when in combat. Beyond that, there really isn't anything to counter the Byakugan, because it isn't the type of ability that has outside factors involved, it simply does what it does.

The Byakugan is not as combat-oriented as the Sharingan, however, it has been adapted to become useful in combat and unlike the Sharingan, it has but it still gets the job done quite well and we feel that at the end of the day, the Byakugan just has more overall to offer to the user. We hope that with this evidence the judges can clearly see that the Byakugan is vastly superior to the Sharingan.

This debate ended with Team 4ThePwn declaired as the victors due to a judges decision. Hikari Link, Tobi_Man, Slynara, Minatonamikaze, and Samjoko were given credit for this victory.


Judging results

Hahonryuu's Report

Teamftpwn
Opening Statement:8/10
Information: 9/10
Logic: 9/10
Information Cited from Canon: 9/10
Information Proved False: -2/-10
Closing Statement: 9/10

Team 2
Opening Statement: 7/10
Information: 8/10
Logic: 6/10
Information Cited from Canon: 7/10
Information Proved False: -4/-10
Closing Statement: 7/10

Sharingan_Warrior's Report

Team 4ThePwn

Opening Statment: 8/10
Information: 8/10
Logic: 9/10
Information from Canon: 8/10
Information Proven False: 0/-10
Closing Statment: 7/10

Team 2

Opening Statment: 6/10
Information: 7/10
Logic: 6/10
Information from Canon: 4/10
Information Proven False: -4/-10
Closing Statment: 0/10

Average

Team 4ThePwn

Opening Statment: 8/10
Information: 8.5/10
Logic: 9/10
Information from Canon: 8.5/10
Information Proven False: -1/-10
Closing Statment: 8/10

Team 2

Opening Statment: 6.5/10
Information: 7.5/10
Logic: 6/10
Information from Canon: 5.5/10
Information Proven False: -4/-10
Closing Statment: 3.5/10

Total Scores

Team 4ThePwn: 41/50
Team 2: 25/50

Judges Comments

Hahonryuu: Team 2 definitely started fairly strong but the more teamftpwn countered the less convincing team 2 got. in the end it comes to seemingly wild speculations that offer no proof while the other team almost always mentioned specific chapters/pages when necessary

and honestly after hearing both sides, the impression i get is

byakugan: good in battle, great for missions and everday stuff

sharingan: great in battle, kinda meh outside of battle

and it is a test of both eyes overall, not just a which is stronger in battle. i mean almost everything team 2 came up with for more practical uses for the sharingan was either not true, meh, or the byakugan did it sooo much better

Sharingan_Warrior: I think Team 4ThePwn should win this thing. They have time and time again provided evidence from the manga to support their claims while Team 2 seems to just speculate and sometimes even brings up information that is contrary to the truth. Also, it seems that all of the arguments that Team 2 has brought up has been shot down by Team 4ThePwn, while reversly Team 2 seem to have been inable to discredit any of Team4ThePwn's arguments. It is for these reasons and more that I feel Team 4The Pwn should win.

[Linda87st]

While the Sharingan is indeed formidable in combat, out of combat, the Byakugan has a suite of applications that the Sharingan just doesn't have. Here are some of those uses that enrich the Byakugan-user's life:

[Linda87st]

Well this thread was made to hold all the previous debate information that come from my Random Manga Debate thread. Some of the debators wanted to keep the information stored for future reference so this will be where all such info is stored before it gets removed from the main thread. Please keep all posting in this thread to a bare minimum and feel free to browse through our archives.