Why can't it just be Obito?

[allanime01]

I see actually a lot of people questioning why so many fans of Naruto hate the idea of it being Obito. Well, here's pretty much every reason why it shouldn't/can't be him (Not mine, found it in a forum where I read Naruto. Personally I find reasons 2-4 and 7-10 the best.)
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I don't think he's the real OBITO. There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.

Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241.
page 19).
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash."
Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501.
page 7).
"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?"
It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been roughly 15-17 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognized Tobi.
(chapter 501 page 8 ).
The Kyuubi actually recognizes Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognize anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognized Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.

Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503.
page 9).
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.

Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out.
(chapter 500-504).
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other.
Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognized him, but he didn’t.

Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560.
page 2).
"This is HIS doing."
That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara.
could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes.
shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15).
This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.

Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter.
462 page 14).
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.

Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512.
page 9).
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.

Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge.
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu, and the Juubi.

AND IN MY OPINION, THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL. Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito.
Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.

(allanime note: You know what character meets and greets all this? Tobimara Senju

[MJM]

Another reason why it could be Tobirama Senju. Tobirama and the 2nd Raikage formed an alliance, however, Kinkaku and Ginkaku attempted a coup d'etat and left him near dead. Kinkaku and Ginkaku were sent to capture the Nine Tails but were eaten and gained some of his powers instead. Later on Tobirama was seen surrounded by twenty Cloud elite ninja known as the Kinkaku Force. Tobirama volunteered himself to be a decoy while the rest of his squadron escaped.

Is it not possible that during the coup d'etat Tobirama actually plotted with Kinkaku and Ginkaku? Sometime after that, the Kinkaku Force, lead by Kinkaku possibly, "defeated" Tobirama. Is it not possible this was the plot planned with Kinkaku and Ginkaku before? He created Edo Tensei which he could revive the Uchiha for his purposes. Now this is because he plotted the Uchiha massacre from the beginning. With them dead, he could revive them for his own methods. With Tobirama considered dead, no one would suspect him.

Also, Tobirama before his real death, could have plotted with Orochimaru, teaching him Edo Tensei. Then, he could have plotted for/known Orochimaru to revive him. Since he is the original creator, he must have known how to severe the control over his soul.

There are also many other parts of the theory that can be deciphered later on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It could also be a member of the Sarutobi Clan, more specifically Sasuke Sarutobi.

The Sarutobi clan is known for high-level techniques, according to Naruto Wikia, but this is justified through Hiruzen's Jutsu, Konohamaru using Rasengan young, and Asuma to some extent. Sasuke Sarutobi was renowned as a great ninja, so great Sasuke Uchiha was named after him.

Now, theory time. Though the Sarutobi aren't exactly the founders of the Leaf, they are a great contributor to it. If I recall correctly, the Leaf had a certain hatred toward the Uchiha, going as far to keep them under watch. Now we know the 3rd was against this hatred. When he fought Orochimaru, I don't remember if this was disproved already, but it might be possible that the 3rd coffin was in fact Hiruzen's father Sasuke.

Forgive me for this "similar name theory", rather this "congruent name theory", but Sasuke UCHIHA might share a name with Sasuke SARUTOBI for a reason other than desired greatness. This would be the ultimate plot if you think about it. Antagonizing the Uchiha clan when the real enemy is a Sarutobi clansman.

Now how has Sasuke Sarutobi lived so long? Is it impossible that he used methods of revival similar to Orochimaru? Edo Tensei has 3 users so far. Kabuto, Orochimaru, and its creator, Tobirama Senju, otherwise known as the Second Hokage. Before we continue with the rest of the theory, let's explain Tobirama a little further.

Tobirama created many functions of the village. These include the Ninja Academy, Chunin Exams, and more importantly, the ANBU and Leaf Police Force. Why are these two important? The 4th Raikage stated that Danzo and Akatsuki might have plotted 3rd's assassination. This might be a stretch considering Danzo has control of ANBU Root rather than Anbu. But it is something to consider. As for the LPF, it was suggested by Tobi himself that it was a method to distance the Leaf from the Uchiha rather than a gift of good will. He also was the leader of the 3rd and the his two advisor's squad.

Anyway, back to the theory. Sasuke Sarutobi was a great shinobi, the father of the Third Hokage, and equally important: alive during the reign of the 2nd Hokage. Now it can be gathered from the Sarutobi clan members that they are devotees of the Will of Fire and believe strongly in the teachings of the Senju, specifically the 1st Hokage. It's possible that Sasuke Sarutobi believed in his teachings so much that he despised the Uchiha to a greater extent. Now, it is valid to say that Sasuke Sarutobi has great influence in the village, enough to have Tobirama use Edo Tensei on his dead body and then severe his control from it. Sasuke Sarutobi, with his "immortality" could have learned Edo Tensei. He would then portray an Uchiha, specifically Madara, and release the Nine Tails to attack the Leaf, putting blame on the Uchiha further.

Now with that done, he would later on, with help from someone else, maybe Danzo, spark the plan to assassinate the Uchiha. Posing as Madara still, he would assist Itachi. With these dead bodies, he could revive them for their powers and also to frame the Uchiha further, something along these lines. Somewhere in the mix he would want to control the world or something and thus have it so Itachi didn't have to kill Sasuke. With Itachi and Sasuke alive, there could always be blame on the Uchiha as long as they lived, that's why he assisted Sasuke so much.

tl;dr: Sasuke Sarutobi could be Tobi.

[allanime01]

I didn't even connect the 12 cloud elite > Kinkaku + Ginkaku combat squad > Tobimara was a double agent.
on the possibility of teaching Orochi the technique, He ALSO must know the seal (The one that kept Madara around even though Edo Tensei is gone.) So after he died, when Third was versing the First and Second, he did the proper seal to stay around despite the technique being over and sometime in the battle slipped through the 4 sound ninjas barrier leaving a substitute behind. From there, he continued planning. Probably setting the wheels for the "Moons Eye Plan" into motion via Akatsuki.

Also, good theory on Sasuke Sarutobi. That whole thing never crossed my mind. Everyone assumes that the third coffin was the 4th hokage, but Orochi couldn't summon the 4th. The 4th was reaper death sealed into Naruto and the Fox after all. It very easily could have been Sasuke Sarutobi (Oh man, even the nickname "Tobi" comes from there)

In short it's going to come to this: If Kishi tries to spin some story making Obito Tobi, bad writer. If it's all over Rin, then he is no better than Stephanie Meyer
If he makes it anyone else (even not one of the totally plausible 2 explained above) and they simply somehow stole/possessed Obito's body, better. How good depends on what happens (That Sasuke theory above is brilliant as hell)

[MJM]

If it is to be Sasuke Sarutobi, he would have needed to collaborate with Tobirama Senju like I stated before. Tobi is in both names so it is easy to see where it is from. Also, I believe Tobi means "jump". How this affects the identity of the character I do not know other than maybe the ability to "jump" time/bodies.

As I stated before, having it be Sasuke Sarutobi would be the ultimate ending to the series, or at least this arc. It would be a complete 360.

[ACTION *******]

Originally Posted by allanime01

I don't think he's the real OBITO. There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.

well that might be a tad harsh. this is a fictional world. virtually anything is possible so long as its within the rules of the universe its in. and we've seen that people can get monstrously strong over a very short time period.

don't get me wrong, im not saying it makes the most sense ever, I'm with you. him going from worst uchiha ever to being able to not instantly get roflpwned by ANBU and minato and being able to summon and control kurama out there. but its far from "not feasible".

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241.
page 19).
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the.
rules and regulations are called trash... but those
who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash."
Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

people can be bad for pretty dumb reasons. if kishimoto, god forbid, says its because kakashi didn't protect rin or something, as dumb as that is...then thats it. the god of naruto will have spoken.

hopefully he is possessed or brainwashed or something. but if kishimoto has proven one thing, its that he doesnt deserve our benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501.
page 7).
"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for.
this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been roughly 15-17 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

better argument than anything in that other thread and I agree.

while i do agree, there is still a problem with that, in that wordings like that are...subjective. sure it could be that he's been waiting 10 20 30+ years...but when you want something really bad, every second can be excruciating. if he had been wanting to do this for even a couple of years. sitting, waiting. hoping for his chance to come...i could still see him saying that.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognized Tobi.
(chapter 501 page 8 ).
The Kyuubi actually recognizes Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognize anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognized Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.

also better than anything in that other thread. see when stupidity isnt spouted off every other word im very agreeable. it is odd that this happened and i count it as further proof of it not being obito in any more than body.

doesnt mean there arent potential holes. the holes arent big, but hey, kishimoto, again, is terrible so i feel like i should say them anyway.

for starters, minato trained obito. kushina is married to minato. chances are, obito met kushina. meaning that, in a weird way, kurama has met obito. or knew of him, i should say. also IIRC tobi didnt take his mask off or anything so unless, assuming he is really old, he was always going around in that mask...kurama was just assuming things. and since the only known people to have controlled him are the sage, hashirama, and madara, and considering of those 3 only 1 has sharingan, he may have simply came to the conclusion it was madara.

also, assuming this is someone possessing obito's body, unless he prefers rotting corpses, I'd assume this guy got to obito's body relatively soon after his death (or "death" i should say) in kakashi gaiden. meaning he would have been in obito's body at the time. meaning kurama recognized obito's body if anything.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503.
page 9).
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.

now i would normally agree, however in the recent chapter kishimoto has proven he doesnt give a crap about how old a character is and he'll draw them however he wants whenever he wants.

also, people get effected by puberty differently. its not impossible obito had a massive growth spurt.

I'd be much more inclined to be with you on this one had kishimoto not taken a massive dump on character ages recently.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out.
(chapter 500-504).
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other.
Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognized him, but he didn’t.

except he was in a mask, he was using a completely different fighting style than the obito he knew, obito was a good kid, obito was supposed to be dead, and obito wasnt on this level.

pretty weak this time. minato isnt psychic nor has he been shown to be able to sense chakra or anything like that. how was he supposed to recognize him when his face fighting style and personality are completely different and he isnt capable of sensing chakra.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560.
page 2).
"This is HIS doing."
That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara.
could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes.
shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15).
This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.

I have nothing to say. I applaud you. again, if you guys had been saying stuff like THIS in that other thread, we would have had zero issues.

indeed it makes no sense for madara to know obito and now it being obito will require madara to have been talking about someone else (not impossible but shifty as heck) or for kishimoto to pull off the worst writing ever and somehow make obito know madara

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter.
462 page 14).
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.

like the above i agree 100%. however unlike above, potentially finding ways around this is a bit easier

-at the time tobi was still going by madara. that technically could have just been him saying things

-perhaps it didnt translate well and what he was basically doing was comparing naruto to hashiramas ideals and the like. basically comparing him to textbook type stuff.

a long shot but not as long as the previous one

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512.
page 9).
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole.
from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.

true true. it would take some pretty bad writing to turn this around.

Originally Posted by allanime01

Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge.
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the
Bijuu, and the Juubi.

knowledge isnt much of an excuse. knowledge can be learned by anyone. i mean considering the other reasons it cant be obito that you've said, yeah. but this doesn't necessarily add to it.

Originally Posted by allanime01

AND IN MY OPINION, THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL. Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito.
Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.

true story

Originally Posted by allanime01

(allanime note: You know what character meets and greets all this? Tobimara Senju

Action ******* approves this message

(>^_^)/ AHAHAHAHA

[ACTION *******]

the question now is...why obito. cuz im still really not feeling the because he was super weak he needed a super weak body excuse.

*gasp* edo tensei. tobirama could be controlling obito from afar in secret

but why obito >_>. as kabuto proved with this war, there were dozens of better options.


wait wait wait

tobirama is sealed up by the god of death after that orochimaru vs hiruzen incident.

[SharinganHeir]

Sorry allanime, but I can find holes in your plot holes. Some of them are legit, but others are stretching and others are just unlikely.

[ACTION *******]

Originally Posted by SharinganHeir

Sorry allanime, but I can find holes in your plot holes. Some of them are legit, but others are stretching and others are just unlikely.

then please do, because the legit ones seem...pretty legit.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by SharinganHeir

Sorry allanime, but I can find holes in your plot holes. Some of them are legit, but others are stretching and others are just unlikely.

Well go on? All it takes is a single piece of evidence to disprove something.

[ACTION *******]

As for "why obito's body"

its possible he/they (maybe tobirama AND sasuke?) simply needed an uchiha for...whatever reason, maybe MJM's idea of wanting the uchiha to be hated or whatever. whether he's being possessed or whether this is edo tensei or why him?

even if they needed an uchiha, they took obito's body during a war. i doubt obito was the only uchiha that died, if he was then...wow. perhaps, if possession and not edo tensei, they needed him to be alive and the other uchiha died too quickly so they couldn't get to them?

hmm it being obito's body just seems weird. i guess its possible this is a collaborated effort and obito is, like, the 3rd tobi. whether or not the others are still around remains to be seen, assuming more than one. but they could have found him and manipulated him or brainwashed him or something to make him hate the leaf. though this requires tem to basically be making a club for people named or who's name can potentially form "tobi" which is dumb as heck.

the only reason i even entertain that thought is because it seems both plausible and stupid, and i still don't have much faith in kishimoto.


thats really the question I have. why obito. at the very least this is clearly obito's body or form. if not possession and its, i dunno, some form of transformation, why? to throw off kakashi? why do that JUST for kakashi. no, transformation seems unlikely since theres little reason to take obito's form. its definitely his body. but WHY???