Manga Debate Archives
Well this thread was made to hold all the previous debate information that come from my Random Manga Debate thread. Some of the debators wanted to keep the information stored for future reference so this will be where all such info is stored before it gets removed from the main thread. Please keep all posting in this thread to a bare minimum and feel free to browse through our archives.
Debate 1: Uchiha/Senju
The question posed was, "During the founding days of the Leaf Village, what the the overall better clan."
This debate began with with Team 4ThePwn choosing to defend why they though the Senju was the better clan during the founding days of the Leaf Village. Team 2 then proceded to defended why they though the Uchiha were the superior clan.
Team 2: There are many pro's and con's to being apart of Uchiha clan but to start with I will bring to attention that to have the ability built into your own kekkai genkai such as the sharingan's ability to copy any type of jutsu that isn't doujutsu is a benefit in itself, not just for the person but to increase the armies arsenal for war but the down side to this is that if you have a traitor amongst them then the enemy will have all your secrets. Also you can’t judge the whole clan by one person's actions or ideals, despite having their differences the Uchiha clan had a huge influence on how the village would be run.
Team 4ThePwn: While the Sharingan is a powerful ability, it has it's limitations, it requires development to reach full potential it's most powerful abilities come at a heavy cost, and it can lead to blindness. Furthermore, the Uchiha have been shown to be quite homogeneous, known for almost universally possessing a fire affinity and the Sharingan. Also, the Sharingan has been shown to be susceptible to faster or superior Taijutsu-users and it cannot copy Kekkei Genkai, showing it is not invincible or omnipotent. However, of the Senju we have seen, all have varying styles and jutsu types, making them an unpredictable and diverse foe and allowing them to cover the weaknesses of one another. Because of this, among other reasons, we intend to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Senju clan was superior during the early days of Konoha.
Team 2: in regards to the red comment i would have to say yes you are correct but the uchiha clan has shown time and time again that they have natural born genius in there family so it goes with out saying that majority of those who activated the sharingan eye (1 tempai) ended up with mangekyou or the full version sharingan eye (3 tempai) examples of said characters are sasuke, itachi, madara, madaras brother, fugaku and even shisu uchiha (itachi's murdered friend).
in regards to the blue comment i would have to say no i do not agree because you have ninja who mastered more then one affinity such as sasuke uchiha whom is fond of the lightning affinity with his variety of chidori technique. also as we seen with sasuke uchiha during the chunnin exam arc against gaara (only at the 2 tempai sharingan) able to copy the speed of rock lee and apply it in his fight against gaara which shows he can clearly understand the taijutsu and defeat it rather than be defeated by it. obviously the sharingan eye is not invincible or omnipotent but then again who is aside from god?
in regards to the black comment above i can say that the senju did study in all technique such as ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu but the uchiha clan have also studied in developing there genjutsu, there doujutsu, there ninjutsu aka fire release technique, and even they are known for there mastery in weapons which they manipulate into more ninjutsu such as the windmill shuriken technique. so i dont see how this would make senju unpredictable or how it can cover there weaknesses when a clan like uchiha does the same thing and a little more.
Team 4ThePwn: While it is true that many of the revealed Uchiha may indeed be geniuses, it should be noted that the Senju have also been shown to posses extreme talent and ability.
What we do know is that, aside from Sasuke, no Uchiha has been shown to use a Ninjutsu outside of the fire element. While they can counter via Sharingan, they are still known to be primarily fire users and that could lead to more prepared opponents, as opposed to a Senju, where the opponent has no idea what it is going to be.
Also, Sasuke never copied Rock Lee's speed, the Sharingan can't do that. That's why Lee destroyed Sasuke when they fought. Sasuke wasn't even there to see Lee fight and he showed no signs of Lee-like speed prior to fighting Gaara, which is why he had so much trouble with Yoroi, aside from the fact that he couldn't use jutsu. He gained his speed through intense training with Kakashi, remember?
The Uchiha are only shown to use Genjutsu via Sharingan and they are known fire-users, other than that, little is known of them. Sasuke and Itachi are both shown to be skilled with weapons, but that doesn't necessarily transfer to a clan-wide thing, these individuals may just have an affinity for them.
Your argument that the Uchiha are just as varied as the Senju has little basis in fact. It appears more than once that if you have seen one Uchiha fight, you can counter the majority of any other Uchiha. Yes, they are still a skilled clan, but ultimately they aren't exactly known for their variety. In fact, most clans aren't. Most clans are generally shown to have members with mostly the same jutsu and fighting style, albeit, at different skill levels. The Senju are the only ones shown to break that trend, with Hashirama as a wood user, Tobirama as a master of water, and Tsunade as an expert in medicine and taijutsu. As you can see, the known Senju all have different fighting styles and it stands to reason that the rest are just as varied. Ultimately, we know that the two clans were rivals and on approximately equal footing, so the argument over battle prowess has only fleeting relevance. We must look at the clans as a whole, which segues nicely into our next point, political savvy.
The Senju were the ones to propose the truce to the Uchiha, showing a great degree of political savvy. The Senju were able to simultaneously get rid of their most powerful enemy and make an unparalleled ally, cementing their position as the most powerful shinobi civilization for countless years to come. It shows an ability to resolve problems diplomatically, as opposed to strictly through force, though we know they were capable of it, and to plan for the future. All that continued war would have done was weaken both clans and allow a new force to surpass them. Such foresight shows the superior mental faculties of the Senju.
Team 2: Ok covering the phrase highlighted in red, We don't realy know that the Senju clan was more or less talented then th Uchiha clan.. We know that when one was hired tofight against an apposing village the other was drafted to fight against them, thats showing that they were equal in skill. Also when you look at both clans as a whole they were both very nieve in thinking that one was beter then the other.
The uchiha clan was just very proud and because of that they were thought of as very skilled, granted they are but i digress. Where would the Senju clan be if it wasn't for the Uchiha clan? Would it not be true that if these two clans went to war they wouldnt of had reason to hone their skills to rival them? I can pretty confidently say that the Uchiha's didn't need the Senju to be where they are today.
Now to cover what was highlighted in dark green, Sasuke was able to copy Rock Lee's speed with his sharingan. Look back to when Might Guy and Kakashi were talkng at the chuunin exam, Kakashi said that might guy should watch sasuke's match and see the improvements that sasuke had made while trianing with him. Guy and Lee both said themselves that sasuke was able to copy lee's speed with his saringan because Kakashi had.
The reason for teaching sasuke that speed was because it would tramendously help him with chidori which was the point of that whole training and why he was late to begin with. So next time you should read your information right before trying to use that against us.
Lastly im going to end with covering what was highlighted in blue, the Senju clan was a special case in terms of breaking that trend. We dont know what the other clan members used in terms of affinity for their jutsu's, we only know of the 1st, 2nd, and 5th hokage's because they were the most important to the story line and the first was the only one able to use the wood jutsu style because he made it. That doesnt mean that they are more diverse then the Uchiha clan.
Again when making points you need to make sure that their arent any gaps in them, not trying to bash you but your point were weak and not founded.
Debate 1: Uchiha/Senju (Continued)
Team 4ThePwn: Your logic is flawed in regard to the red part. You first say that both clans are powerful and are equal in skill, which is exactly what we said, yet you then go on to say that the Senju would not be as strong if not for the Uchiha, yet the Uchiha would be just as powerful if not for the Senju. On Page 19 of Chapter 398 Madara clearly states that Hashirama "stood at the top of the ninja world." He goes on to say in Chapter 399, Page 2 that he became better known by fighting Hashirama, rather than the opposite. It isn't that we're saying that strong rivals don't bring out the best in people, but the fact is, the Senju clan has turned out some excellent ninja. Marginalizing that because they don't have a ridiculously powerful Kekkei Genkai seems foolish. In Chapter 222, Pages 12-16 Itachi even gives a long speech about the folly of presuming superiority simply because their clan is elite.
As for the green part, it is you who may want to reexamine the information before trying to present it against us. Chapter 112, Page 7 quite clearly states that Sasuke copied Lee's Taijutsu, not his speed. You can look at all of the other pages around that general time and see that not once is it stated that Sasuke copied Lee's speed. Rather it says that he worked on his speed and used Lee's Taijutsu as the basis for his own. You are trying to attribute unnecessary power to the Sharingan, when it has enough as it is. Besides, why would Lee ever even say that Taijutsu is the natural enemy of the Sharingan if the user could just copy their speed. Not to mention the fact that if this were true, Kakashi would have a higher stat in speed, as it would Uchiha, since it would probably be a village policy to have every Sharingan-user copy the speed of someone with ridiculous speed, like Guy, to further increase the power of the village. Please think about these things in the future.
Moving on to the blue part. While t is true that we don't know for a fact that the Senju were a varied lot, it is not unreasonable to conjecture thus. Firstly, we have seen three major people from the Senju, all of which have different styles. On the other hand, as we have previously stated, no other clan has shown such variety in their notable shinobi. While certainly they could be just as homogeneous as any other clan, what we do know is that they were as powerful as the Uchiha clan, if not more so, and the known members have completely different fighting styles. Indeed we have seen very little of them, but one has to wonder what happened to the Senju? They were one of the most powerful clans in the shinobi world and now they are all but extinct. Perhaps, due to their varied nature, they branched off and each formed their own clans in the village, of course this is just one possible theory, but it certainly is a possibility. Regardless, despite what you have said, they are more diverse as far as we know, simply by virtue of the fact that the Uchiha clan has virtually no diversity, while all known Senju are completely different. However, we must once more stress the fact that battle prowess is not everything. We know that they are approximately equal in terms of power, this debate is about each clan overall.
Moving on to such a topic and in relation to our last mention of political prowess, we have the topic of the Konoha Military Police. According to Madara, the choice to have the Uchiha be police both allowed the Senju to survey the Uchiha for signs of treachery and keep them away from governing, but it also gave the village a strong centralized law enforcement agency at the same time. That is win-win right there. It was a brilliant tactical decision which would later prove to benefit the village down the road.
This debate ended with Team 4ThePwn declaired as the victors, due to a lack of responses from Team 2. Hikari Link, Tobi_Man, Slynara, and Random101 were given credit for this victory.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan
The question posed was, "Out of the two Doujutsus of the Leaf Village, which one is the overall better choice to have. The Sharingan or the Byakugan. Restrictions: All references to the Mangekyo Sharingan in order to prove your point are prohibited."
This debate began with Team 2 choosing to defend the Sharingan. Team 4ThePwn then proceaded to defend why they though the Byakugan was the superior doujutsu.
Team 4ThePwn:The Byakugan has many advantages over the Sharingan, which we intend to discuss here. Through use of evidence from official sources and logical conjecture, we hope to prove that the Byakugan outclasses the Sharingan in virtually every field.
For starters, the Byakugan has telescopic capabilities. This ability makes searching for a target a faster and more efficient process. It also proves most useful when scouting is necessary, giving the advantage of seeing further ahead, without the need to split forces. This brings us to the next point.
The Byakugan also has near-360 degree vision, though that description is not quite accurate, as it doesn't take into account the ability to see above and below the user as well. It is in actuality giving the user an entire sense of awareness of the area surrounding the user, with only a very small blind spot. This ability makes ambushing a Byakugan-user nigh impossible while their Byakugan is active. It also combines nicely with the telescopic vision, giving the user a field of vision that not only allows them to find the enemy before the enemy can find them, but also assess the enemy. With the Byakugan's X-Ray ability of seeing chakra, any enemy can be fully assessed for any tools or weapons, signs of fatigue, or other notable features .
Another reason for superiority is because the Byakugan manifests itself at a younger age than the Sharingan.While Hyuuga such as Hinata and Neji have been shown to use their Byakugan at very young ages, perhaps even in infancy, the Sharingan seems to manifest itself at a later state in life, typically adolescence, and it usually seems to manifest as a defense mechanism in a situation where the user perceives a threat. This disparity in time severely effects how efficient the users are. The Byakugan generally allows for more experience overall.
For these reasons and more, we believe that the Byakugan is superior to the Sharingan.
Team 2: We have evidence from text that the Sharingan is superior to the Byakugan for various reasons which we plan discuss here.
The Sharingan has an incredible perception of sight allowing advanced and beginner users users to see things that move at incredible speeds. It also allows for the user to penetrate it's target and see the targets chakra. Though not capable of seeing tanketsu points or the chakra circulatory system it can tell whether someone is trapped in a genjutsu or tell a clone from the original. Another powerful ability is the Sharingan's ability to read movements from the slightest muscle tension effectively allowing Sharingan users to easily dodge even the fastest of taijutsu and ninjutsu attacks. The Sharingan's copy ability is also an incredible function it allows it's users to easily copy any non-kekkei genkai technique they can meet the physical and spiritual requirements for and lastly advanced Sharingan users can induce genjutsu and hypnosis on any opponent who's eye looks into theirs.
For these reasons and some others we will mention later the Sharingan is clearly superior to the Byakugan and we will prove this beyond a doubt.
Team 4ThePwn: While the Sharingan can indeed see chakra and observe a great deal of things regarding it, it should be noted that there is no known method of chakra detection that the Sharingan has that the Byakugan doesn't, so that is hardly an argument for its superiority.
Further, the Sharingan has been shown to see through genjutsu and incorporeal clones, but to make the blanket statement that it can see through all clones is not necessarily true, though it is likely, due to the chakra distribution, but the Byakugan can also see such things too, so it is moot either way. As is the point that it can see if someone is trapped in a genjutsu, as the Byakugan can as well.
We will concede that the ability to copy and analyze jutsu is indeed a powerful ability that will serve the wielder well for years to come, but in battle it is not as useful, as the opponent of the Sharingan-user is likely to know their own jutsu well enough to counter or avoid it when it is used against them, so it is no guarantee of a victorious battle.
The ability to place the opponent under genjutsu through eye contact is also troublesome, but for someone who knows of this ability, it would be quite possible to counter it simply by not looking in their eyes. Further, it would also be possible to simply break the genjutsu, which we know is quite possible. While the ability is useful in one-on-one confrontation, we know that when facing a group, it is both possible and rather simple to counter genjutsu. Considering that most of the work that ninja do is in teams, that means this ability is quite easily defeated in ninja-on-ninja combat.
While the Sharingan can indeed see and predict muscle movements, that is only the fully-developed Sharingan, so until that point, the Sharingan-user is only able to see things moving at high speeds. However even with the ability, if it is faster than the body has the ability to react, it is all for naught. That is why taijutsu is the key weakness of the Sharingan. Enter the Gentle Fist.
The Hyuuga clan's specialized taijutsu style, the gentle fist, is a very quick, fluid fighting style and it has the ability to deal critical amounts of damage with just a glancing blow, and it is all made possible by the Byakugan. Furthermore, it allows the user to open and close the opponent's tenketsu at will. Against a Sharingan-user, such a fighting style is the worst possible scenario. Even among the greatest of martial artists, it is accepted that not every attack can be dodged, hence the parry, but the Gentle Fist has the potential to do damage even then.
While this debate is about which is better overall, the argument of which would win in a fight certainly is appropriate, and it should be rather clear which of the two would win, taking an average user from both groups. With two or less tomoe, a Sharingan-user wouldn't stand a chance, though even at the level of the third tomoe, a fast enough Byakugan-user should easily be able to dispense most Sharingan-users with this method, and considering the style, high speed would not be an uncommon attribute among the Hyuuga.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)
Team 2: While it's ability to see chakra might not necessarily be a tribute to it's superiority it is a viable point seeing as it can allow the user to see whether you are about to use a technique and it also contributes to the copy abilities of the Sharingan.
In the situation that a Byakugan user is fighting a fully developed sharingan user you have to acknowledge that first the genjutsu could very well confuse and trick the Byakugan and that it would be extraordinarily difficult to not see something in the range of the Byakugans near 365 degree field of vision. Even very advanced jonin find it very troubling to be trapped in a genjutsu created by a fully developed Sharingan user. Also the hypnosis is very subtle and we can tell this from the fact that Zabuza didn't realize he was hypnotized until after his battle with Kakashi.
The fact that only the fully developed sharingan is only capable of predicting muscle movement because thats the same as stating that a young byakugan user couldn't use gentle fist which would be true due to lack of experience. This battle is which is more useful and developing the Sharingan to the 3rd tomoe is based on an individual ninja's skill not the doujutsu itself. But while speaking of it's prediction based abilities not many things can move at a speed where the ability wouldn't be able to react making the idea of the gentle fist style moot even Haku's speed in the crystal ice mirrors only barely allowed him to avoid Sasuke's fireball jutsu and this was just at 2 tomoe and the gentle fist techniques are not that fast nor are it's users. The fastest physical technique the Hyuga posses is clearly the 64 palms rotation with maybe it taking about a half of a second. But a complete sharingan would notice the technique almost before the chakra could be charged to use it giving the Sharingan user ample time to avoid it or counter it even before it starts.
Now while the gentle fist would still probably be a bad match up in close range combat the Uchiha are a diverse clan with techniques to match starting with their mastery of string manipulation and fire style techniques that are long range which is a bad scenario for the almost completely close range techniques of the Hyuga and unfortunately only truly advanced users of the Byakugan can use the one mid to long range technique which is the Air palm (seeing as Neji is the only Hyuga been seen to use it). So it would be a worse match up for the Hyuga rather than the Uchiha due to the fact they are at a disadvantage against long range fighters.
If you truly take an average user of both the byakugan and the Sharingan and placed them in a match obviously the Uchiha would still have an advantage due to their long ranged fire style techniques and advance shuriken and string manipulation techniques while an average Byakugan user would be incapable of using the most devastating techniques of their own clan such as their ultimate defense 64 palms rotation and the 8 trigram 64 palms technique.
Now back to the subject of the Sharingans copy abilities the sharingan can also copy physical skills such as advanced taijutsu and physical skills such as advanced speed it also is more than capable of memorizing any kind of movements such as the movements of some one using a pencil to copy what they are writing or memorizing any sequence or written document which also allows scouting missions to be of ease to a Uchiha. The ability to copy techniques of any non-doujutsu while simultaneously being able to place to caster under hypnosis and genjutsu makes the sharingan difficult to defeat.
Team 4ThePwn: We must reiterate that the ability to see chakra is an ability that the Byakugan also has, only better, so it's not really that helpful for the purposes of this debate. Further, what evidence do you have that the ability to see chakra is in any way correlated with the ability to copy jutsu?
While it is true that the Sharingan-user can potentially use a genjutsu on the Byakugan-user, you should take into account that someone such as a Hyuuga is adept at chakra control, it would be a simple feat to cancel genjutsu. In Chapter 259, Page 10, Jiraiya describes the basis of genjutsu negation, We then go on to see Naruto attempt to cancel a genjutsu that has been placed upon him. One thing that is particularly important about this scene is his ability to determine it is still a genjutsu on page 12-13. Even though the crows disappear and he is showered with shuriken, his immediate response is "this is genjutsu." If even Naruto can tell he is under a genjutsu cast by Itachi, then surely one of the Hyuuga, masters of perception, could notice one cast by your average Uchiha. Especially since, as you so handily put it, they would see the chakra flow of the Uchiha and therefore would know a jutsu was being used. And the hypnosis is hardly very subtle, Zabuza was just unaware of the capabilities of the Sharingan. Had he known it had the ability to cast genjutsu, he surely could have realized the situation.
And likening the development of the Sharingan to a Hyuuga learning the Gentle Fist is laughable. For starters, we see that Hyuuga train from a young age, as shown by Hinata and Hanabi. However, the Sharingan manifests later in life, seemingly during stressful moments and there is no clear catalyst for its development. Sasuke didn't just suddenly become a better ninja while fighting Naruto, his Sharingan developed, independent of training. It would be better to liken it to the distance that the Byakugan can see, which seems to develop over the years by means that have not yet been explained. Skill does not seem to be a factor at all. Face it, the development time of the Sharingan is indeed a downside.
Further, Haku was not the only one faster than 2 tomoe. You may recall Rock Lee with his weights on soundly destroyed Sasuke, even with the Sharingan. The Sharingan's ability to perceive fast things has it's limits, especially before 3 tomoe. Even then, If the speed were fast enough, even muscle prediction would not be enough. Being able to dodge the 64 Palms is a pretty bold claim, considering how fast it hits. Of course, that really isn't even a necessary move, since regular strikes already have a debilitating potential.
Calling the Uchiha clan divers is like calling an elephant small. Most clans are homogeneous by definition, with the Senju seeming to be the only one to break the trend. If you will recall, it was one of the main things that angered Itachi. The word you were probably looking for is versatile. By the way, it's funny you should mention the Fire Jutsu as long-range. Databook one describes Goukakyuu (Fireball) and Housenka (Phoenix Flower) as close-range attacks, while it describes Ryuuka (Dragon Flame) as mid-range, so those fire attacks would be placing the user in the danger zone is they hope to have any chance of hitting. And that string control? Remember what happened to Kidoumaru? Yeah...
Also, deciding who would win between average members depends on what your definition of an average member is. If we are taking someone with three tomoe, then obviously it is only fair to have a main branch member, so they would have access to their best stuff. We are also confident that a two tome-user could easily be dispatched without resorting to 64 Palms or Heavenly Spin.
Another thing, would people please stop saying that the Sharingan can copy speed? We've already been over this. You may want to look back on the previous debate and see where we disproved that ridiculous notion. That aside, the Sharingan can indeed copy many skills, but according to Databook 1, it can only use abilities that the user meets the requirements for. If it requires speed, they would need speed, if it requires chakra, they would need the necessary amount of chakra, and so forth.
The true strength of the Sharingan lies in 1-on-1 combat, which we believe that a Byakugan-user could still win. Both in and outside of battle, both on and off the battlefield, the Byakugan has many uses, while the Sharingan has relatively few. The Byakugan can be used for tracking, finding lost objects, cheating, analyzing opponent's chakra reserves, viewing the chakra system, determining if a person is affected by genjutsu, assessing enemy gear, scouting, and spying, both for on a mission or pleasure, if you know what I'm saying. Plus there are probably plenty of other uses we have missed.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)
Team 2: While it's not necessarily related to the copy abilities it still is a central ability of the Sharingan simply because it allows the user to easily recognize genjutsu and different forms of chakra. Though the Byakugan can also see chakra I am emphasizing this ability to show the only real difference in their ability to read chakra is the fact that the Byakugan can see the chakra network and some can go even farther by seeing the tanketsu points.
You should also note that while Naruto could tell he was in a genjutsu by Itachi he could not break out of it. Now while you may say it's due to his lack of chakra control it could also and very likely was due to the strength of the genjutsu. So, just discerning that your trapped in a genjutsu and just having the knowledge to break it doesn't mean that you actually can. Furthermore the hypnosis aspect of the technique is not a genjutsu though it works on the same properties it's not even classified as a technique. But rather classified as a skill and involves suggestive thoughts. So to say a Byakugan user could simply identify it is completely incorrect and can easily alter how a battle against any opponent affected would go.
Now you state Zabuza was just ignorant of the Sharingans abilities but his only counter to it was the hidden mist jutsu and last I checked Byakugan users rarely use ninjutsu and even further breaking down the Sharingans techniques doesn't really matter unless your prepared for specifically fightning a Sharingan user. So, regardless of the Zabuza's ignorance he didn't notice it while he was under it he figured it out at a later period. Also a point of kekkei genkai is that they are secret techniques and are kept secret so it's really not a argument that it was a surprise technique because thats one of the main advantages of all blood line techs.
Stating that the Sharingan manifest late in life is laughable especially since that particularly Sasuke's sharingan manifested at the age of 7, Itachi's Sharingan manifest at the age of 8. This was before either of them were even considered to be ninja's and while we have late bloomers such as Obito who's Sharingan manifested at 13. So while it does take time depending on the ninja themselves it's use require little to no training seeing as Obito, Sasuke and Kakashi quickly and easily made use of it in the middle of battle despite the fact that it just had been awakened. Now while it does take training to further progress the Sharingan to the 3rd tomoe have seen a ninja who had Sharingan but didn't progress it to the 3rd tomoe other than Obito? (which was due to him dying shortly after awakening it and even so Kakashi later progressed one of his sharingan to the highest possible level)
Yes while I recall Rock lee having the advantage to say he destroyed Sasuke is a truly bold claim that can not be stated simply because that fight ended before it really began due to Guy interrupting. Now while Rock Lee had a chance at the lotus just a short while later we see that Sasuke copied lee's style which means he knows how it works and he could have easily worked out a counter. Also if you notice Sasuke fought Naruto who was going at incredible speeds due to him being enhanced with foxes chakra and Sasuke still was capable of effortlessly dodging each of Naruto's techniques due to being aware of each of his moves even before he was. Also to noted is the fact that Naruto while still tapping into the foxes power was struck multiple times easily by Sasuke literally the third tomoe and it's prediction ability turned that fight directly into Sasuke's favor. Also if I recall correctly Naruto's speed when facing Neji was to the point that Neji couldn't keep up with him it's more than likely that Naruto at the time was faster than Neji and Sasuke easily kept up with him. Another thing to note would be that most Sharingan user in the databooks are as fast if not faster than the users of the Byakugan based on their points so to state that a Hyuga speed is that quicker than a Uchiha is untrue.
When I said diverse I meant it though the Uchiha's base techniques are fire style and though all Sharingan users use Sharingan you have to note that the only Sharingan users we seen fight out of the 6 of them Obito, Madara,Kakashi, Danzo, Sasuke and Itachi have been shown to use fire style, lightning style, Water style, Earth style and wind style and while earth and wind were used by Kakashi and Danzo alone, fire, Water and lightning styles have been used between Sasuke and Itachi and Madara has never been seen to use a elemental style technique. So, the only one who has stuck to just fire style is Obito Uchiha. Also diversity is a natural amongst the Sharingan user because they can copy techniques regardless of their elemental nature or in fact regardless of the jutsu type whether it's Taijutsu, Ninjutsu or Genjutsu it can and will be copied. The only 2 restrictions are Kekkei Genkai and techniques they do not fit the physical requirements for.
One thing about the Hyuga's main branch family is that even some of them can't use their best techniques. I have never seen Hinata use the palms rotation or the 64 palms and she's still a main branch member and she's the daughter of the main branches leader. So, for a Byakugan users even if they are main branch there's still a good chance that they don't have the skill to use their best techniques and Neji's ability to use them is due purely to his skills and natural talent and while Hinata has been shown on multiple occasions to be a fairly skilled user of the gentle fist she has never been shown to use the 2 most powerful techniques of the clan so I doubt an average member would have the ability either or for that matter even be able to see the tanketsu points that would allow you to even perform the 64 palms.
Okay so while the Sharingan cannot copy skills such as speed they can copy the taijutsu that allows the speed. Which is what Sasuke did and even though he still trained to strengthen his body to do that and even though it placed more strain on his body due to his lack of training he essentially copied lee's speed by fulfilling the requirements to use the style he copied from lee.
The Sharingan's is strong regardless of the situation whether it's combat with a single enemy or a team of enemies but, like all techniques it has it's limits the difference is the Sharingans only limit is it's user and even then the Sharingan in itself improves the users ability to learn jutsu's and other techniques. Though that's not really necessary when you can just trick your opponent into placing himself in a bad position through hypnosis or you can just place your opponent in a genjutsu. The Sharingan is valuable in almost any scenario being able to notice even the slightest and most subtle of details such as reading lips, copying pencil stroke, analyzing equipment and scouting their surrounding area and probably a multitude of uses that we haven't even thought of. Either way the Byakugans small advantages doesn't compare to the strength of the Sharingan.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)
Team 4ThePwn: While the ability to see chakra is useful, it still remains that the Byakugan does it better in every way. The Sharingan simply gives color to chakra, as stated by Sasuke in Chapter 360, Page 14. On the other hand, the Byakugan can see the chakra network in addition to chakra, the distinct advantage being to tell how the chakra flows.
It should be pointed out that Itachi was a master of genjutsu. You may be correct on the strength of the genjutsu, but this alone does not count for an average Sharingan user, as Itachi was considered a genius, even among his genius of the Clan. Because the Byakugan is capable of seeing other people's chakra, the Byakugan would be able to easily see their opponent focusing their chakra and thus be aware when a genjutsu is coming. It would then not be a difficult feat to deactivate the Byakugan and look away when such an action is forthcoming.
The only thing Zabuza was ignorant about was the hypnosis ability of the Sharingan. He clearly knew what the Sharingan was, as he knew who Kakashi was. His knowledge of Kakashi and his Sharingan is displayed on Chapter 13, page 3, when they first meet. The second time they meet, he uses an effective counter, Hidden Mist Jutsu, that leaves Kakashi's Eye Hypnosis useless. Kekkei Genkai are no secret, it is just that outsiders do not know all of the intricacies of them. What is unknown is figured out within battle.
Speaking of counters against the Sharingan, even Guy knew a counter against the Sharingan by looking away from their eyes and focusing on their feet. While this is a very specialized counter, as shown in Chapter 143, Page 15-16, the it is also stated as a form that can be used in a pinch. While it is not a common method of counter, it is a weakness that the Byakugan does not have. It also shows that speed can be used to counter even a three tomoe-user, based on the fact that Guy was specifically training against Kakashi.
Against Rock Lee, even though Sasuke was able to copy his move, stating that Sasuke would've worked out a counter for the same move next time is not logical. It was clearly stated that Sasuke could not counter taijutsu without the proper speed. Besides that, the impact of the Lotus would have assuredly ended the fight without interference. The problem is, unlike against a foe like Rock Lee or Haku, where counter can be developed over time, against the Gentle Fist, that time would only make opponent weaker, since the opponent would be taking internal damage.
Again with the subject of copying speed with Rock Lee. There is no essentially, he didn't copy it. He trained himself to be as fast, but he did not copy speed. No taijutsu "allows" the speed either. Any move can be done fast. Look at Rock Lee in his Inner Gates. Any punch or kick was under the influence of the speed. Just because he might be able to copy a punch or kick, doesn't "allow" him to be that fast. All he did was copy the glimpse of Rock Lee's move he saw before he got hit.
Diversity of jutsu wouldn't matter to someone such as a Hyuuga. Given their Heavenly Spin, they have a perfect defense against ninjutsu or ranged attacks. Like you stated, the Sharingan cannot copy Kekkei Genkai, or techniques they do not meet the requirements for. Byakugan and Gentle Fist fits those categories quite nicely.
Further, you are once more taking things out of context. You are looking at all of the best people we have seen and taking them as the average while taking the worst person we have and taking them as an average. Kakashi and Danzou are automatically disqualified as average because they are not Uchiha. Itachi is also disqualified because he was a genius. Considering everything we've seen of Sasuke since he gained the Cursed Seal, he also really can't be called average anymore. Of course, we also can't acknowledge Obito as average, because we know he was considered weak among his clan. Of course, we can't really place an average among the Hyuuga either, considering all we know are those among the best and the worst. However, we do know that Neji was able to recreate the best techniques of the Hyuuga because he was a genius and that Sasuke was more or less average before he gained the Cursed Seal, based upon how he was viewed by his peers, betters, and family. It would probably be easiest to say that at the time of the Chuunin exam, before Sasuke was bitten, both were slightly above average for their respective clans.
The Sharingan manifestation time you stated is laughable. You should probably do some research next time. You say Itachi manifested his Sharingan before he was a ninja at 8? How about the fact that he graduated from the academy at 7 and became a Chuunin at 10? As previously stated, Itachi was hardly the average Uchiha, so it is foolish to hold him up to normal standards. You also talk about how Sasuke's Sharingan manifested at 7, but you fail to mention that it quickly goes away and doesn't reappear until 12. Of course, the only reason it originally manifested was due to heightened emotional duress. It is made pretty clear that the Sharingan requires going through a very tough ordeal in order to manifest. It's interesting that you mention Obito's manifestation at 13 as a late bloomer, considering Sasuke's true manifestation age. What is more likely is not that the age was late, but rather, the time he spent as a ninja. He graduated at 9, yet didn't manifest for 4 years, compared to Sasuke and Itachi, who both manifested within a year of graduation. Under that assumption, which is not necessarily a fact, but can be extrapolated from the evidence that we do have, it would still seem that the Hyuuga have much longer to get used to their doujutsu than the Uchiha.
The Sharingan is strong against a team of enemies? First of all, it's stated that Sharingan is less effective with more people to fight, so to say that Sharingan can beat a team of people is to go against facts. The Byakugan has no problems when fighting a team of people, due to the near-360 degree vision.
And just how does the Sharingan analyze equipment? The Byakugan is the only one with X-ray vision here. Better in scouting? The Sharingan can only see what's in front of them. You seem to be getting the Sharingan and Byakugan mixed up. Why copy pencil strokes when the Byakugan can just easily look at the paper? Also, the Sharingan needs to see what it's going to copy before the user can copy. The Byakugan can safely examine from a distance, even outside a building, and take note of everything. Even for spy missions, the Byakugan is superior. Hyuuga don't even have to worry if anyone is sneaking up behind them while they're intently spying.
We think you'll find that the battle uses and practical uses of Byakugan far outweigh the Sharingan in most scenarios.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)
Team 2: I want to state that really seeing the chakra network and tanketsu points is the only really relevant advantage that the Byakugan has over the Sharingan as far as seeing chakra goes and thats because of the gentle fist.
Now while Itachi is a master of genjutsu and whatnot the Sharingan can copy any non kekkei genkai technique so the genjutsu itself is easily learnable for the Sharingan and anyone who wields it so Itachi being a master is moot. Also it's unwise to take your eyes off your opponent during a fight it most likely will get you killed.
If kekkei genkai's are not secret then why do the Hyuga's brand their branch members with the cursed seal. I believe it was said to keep other ninja's from getting the secrets of the Byakugan. So, Kekkei genkai's are secrets that are hidden but of course information is gonna be leaked.
So, now to the subjects of countering the Sharingan. The form that Might guy used was as you said specialized and unfortunately impossible to pull off if you don't train with the form alot as Kurenai and/or Asuma said. So, that is once again ineffective and another thing to point out is that it only stops eye contact it doesn't prevent any types of jutsu's from being used.
Another thing is how does might guy being able to avoid eye contact with a sharingan prove that speed can win against a three tomoe sharingan user especially when we haven't really seen Kakashi and Might guy fight. I also have never seen taijutsu work on a 3 tomoe sharingan user unless were talking about Killer bee or E in which case your talking about a Kage that has speed similar to the fourth hokage and the 8 tailed jinchuriki. You'd have to fight at a ridiculous speed to keep the Sharingan from seeing your movements actually you'd have to move in from place to place faster than an instant.
Also back to the subject of Rock lee vs Sasuke. You can't say that it would have "assuredly" ended the fight because you don't know that. Now Gaara did have to use sand to soften the floor. But you can't know exactly what would have happened who's to say Sasuke wouldn't have slipped out. Additionally had Sasuke had his third tomoe who's to say he would have gotten caught with the technique in the first place. Also to think that Sasuke wouldn't have seen a weakness in a technique he copied is an underestimation on the ninja not the eye and the idea that the Gentle fist would hit in the first place is very much so laughable when I know your every move before you even make it. Your also thinking this is in battle and by your logic an Uchiha would know of the Gentle fist and the Byakugan and should be able to strategize against it.
Now as far the Heavenly Spin goes well I got nothing on that but it doesn't really matter whether you can block my techniques if you can't hit me either. Also your speaking of an advanced technique one that I've never seen anybody but Neji and Hizashi use. So, that doesn't account for an average user.
Now it's obvious that the branch members are the majority of the Hyuga clan. Now I took Hinata Hyuga who is by no means average and stated she can't use the best techs so why would random cannon fodder ninja z with byakugan be able to use it. Now as far as Sharingan users I was stating the point that while every Uchiha is brought up learning the fire style the Sharingan easily takes that limit off of it's user and allows them to copy their way into other elements. On another note Kakashi and Danzo have to count seeing as they are users of the Sharingan and we are talking about the Sharingan and not the Uchiha's only by extension do we need to mention the clan. But in all we are talking about the possibilities the Sharingan opens up to the user.
Now what time a ninja manifest's the Sharingan is partially up to the user and partially up to chance of a moment of emotional duress. But the Uchiha are ninja's and ninja's go on dangerous missions and more than likely one of those missions are gonna be dangerous enough to put the Uchiha at hand in a stressful enough situation that the Sharingan activates. So, although times may vary it's hardly a problem for an Uchiha to activate his Sharingan when he's thrown into stressful situations often. While on that note I want to make it understood that it takes very little skill or experience to use the Sharingan seeing as everyone we have seen get it has absolutely no issue in it's use.
Now onto team battles. Now the Sharingan takes note of all things in it's range of vision so for you to imply the Sharingan becomes negligible in combat against a team doesn't is partially untrue and it goes against the fact that the Sharingan is a supplementary doujutsu it's advantages are very much so based on the user and what the user has acquired with it. So, even when the Sharingan isn't in use it still plays a role in combat due to copied jutsu and techniques. Also it's very effective even against a team due once again to being able to instantly trap one in genjutsu and to be able to predict the move of the others in it's field of vision. Now a team going against a byakugan user is very much so different simply because even though a Byakugan user is receiving the visual information doesn't mean his eyes can process it all which is why Kakashi needed Sharingan to perfect Chidori. It was because his normal vision couldn't process all of the information so he couldn't prepare for the inevitable counter attack and since the Byakugan doesn't enhance the vision it increases the range and provides telescopic vision it's susceptible to the same issue. So, it's effectiveness is the one that goes down against a group.
Now as far as scouting goes and most other things the details matter and the Sharingan pulls out the details. Which is why it can very well be effective in the scouting situation while the byakugan does not so it can miss something. It can easily overlook a detail that might be the most important one.
So, maybe in your fantasy world the Byakugan is a better tool. But in here the Sharingan is the strongest doujutsu.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan (Continued)
Team 4ThePwn: You continually brush off the usefulness of being able to see the chakra network. Make no mistake, the Gentle Fist is not the only use of that function of the Byakugan. The ability to know when the opponent is gathering chakra and what areas have already been disabled is an invaluable tool for any ninja. The Sharingan has the ability to read muscle movement is indeed useful, but you might say that the Byakugan's ability to see a jutsu coming is the inverse of it.
On the other hand, you place too much stock in the Sharingan's copy ability. We know that the Sharingan can't use a jutsu that it does not meet the requirements for, yet here you are stating that it can copy any jutsu that is not a Kekkei Genkai. For one thing, the amount of chakra a jutsu costs is an important factor. Jiraiya also stated in Chapter 259, Page 9 that Genjutsu requires a high level of intellect, so saying that Itachi being a genius is moot seems a bit naive, don't you think? One other thing we'd like to point out is that there is the possibility that the Sharingan cannot use abilities not matching the user's affinity. In Chapter 315, Page 13, Yamato states that the Uchiha had fire nature chakra, so they were skilled with Fire Release jutsu. Further, in Chapter 113, Pages 7-8, Kakashi states that the reason he trained Sasuke is because they are the same type, implying that it might not be possible to teach Sasuke the Chidori if he did not have the proper affinity. To further back up this line of reasoning, we've only ever seen Kakashi use Earth, Water, and Lightning Release. Note that Kakashi used a Water Release jutsu in Chapter 142, Page 9, so saying that he has only ever used a water jutsu when copying someone is not necessarily a valid argument. It should also be noted that no Sharingan user has ever been shown to be able to use more than three elements. While we'll concede that this is not concrete evidence of anything, we'd like both of the judges and our opponents to consider the implications of the facts presented here when we say that we believe that elemental affinity is necessary when copying a jutsu.
It's barely even worth bothering to respond to your throwaway remark about getting killed by not looking at the opponent. Obviously, the statement about looking away referred to the eyes, rather than the individual as a whole.
Following a trend that should surprise no one, you are misunderstanding the point of the Cursed Seal. Everybody knows of the Byakugan, and the Sharingan for that matter, but they don’t know the inner workings, such as the blind spot, the secret of the Byakugan. Also, the Cursed Seal is used to seal the Byakugan's powers when the ninja dies to keep it in the Hyuuga clan.
We used Might Guy’s technique as an example to show that there are ways to counter the Sharingan. You apparently skipped the part where we said that it could be used in a pinch by a skilled ninja, otherwise, Guy would be unlikely to even bother suggesting Kurenai and Asuma use it. Also, although taking your eyes off your opponent doesn’t stop jutsu from being used, it does stop eye-to-eye genjutsu. Also, for you to say that Guy might not be able to even keep up with Kakashi is just ridiculous. In Chapter 13, Pages 4-5, we see that even Zabuza landed a solid blow on Kakashi, and they were both 4 in speed at the time. Compare that to Kakashi's current 4.5 vs. Guy's 5 and it is clear that Guy landing blows is entirely possible. On the topic of being able to hit those that have three tomoe, we see that Killerbee is able to get hits in on Sasuke, the most prominent being Chapter 411, Page 18.
Continuing on the topic of taijutsu, the idea that Sasuke would have been able to slip out of the Lotus is rather dubious. It was pretty clear Sasuke was in no position to respond and to say otherwise is little more than a fool's method of disregarding valid evidence. Whether a third tomoe would have helped Sasuke is irrelevant. He didn’t have, it so the point is moot. Also, just because a person knows of a move doesn’t mean they have a counter for it. It's the same basic principle as the one that a person can't always counter a move just because they see it coming. It is troubling to think that you still have not come to terms with that yet.
It is also troubling to think that you still don't seem to understand the concept of average. None of the people you have stated for either side are even remotely average. The fact of the matter is, we don't know what average is, period. Rather than taking specific users, it is far more reasonable to take the best abilities both have to offer, without irregularities that are specific to any single person i.e. Chidori, Itachi's genjutsu capabilities, Danzou's arm covered in Sharingan, and Obito's incompetence as a ninja, and apply them to a generic template to see which has the greatest potential. For the sake of ease, let's call them Uchiha Daisuke and Hyuuga Ichirou. Then let's assign them stats that are in line with their respective clans favored abilities. That would look something like:
Looking at the stat wheels of the known Uchiha and Hyuuga, we have come up with stats that, when graphed out, would not be much different in shape to all other members of the clan, regardless of competence level. Using this approach, we could easily debate which is stronger in a one-on-one battle. We'll leave it up to you to decide whether or not that seems fair.
“Now what time a ninja manifest's the Sharingan is partially up to the user.” This really made me laugh. This statement is ridiculous. How is it partially up to the user? A typical genin has very little in the way of stressful missions and we've seen that even Obito, a chuunin during wartime, didn't come into such a situation for two years. By the way, we were never arguing the intuitive nature of the Sharingan vs. the Byakugan, but you cannot deny that more experience is always preferable to less, which is in fact an advantage that every person born with the Byakugan has over every person who has to manifest the Sharingan.
You should also note that we never said that the Sharingan was completely useless against multiple opponents, we just said it wasn’t nearly as good as the Byakugan at fight several opponents. We say this because the Sharingan is just like a normal eye when it comes to fields of vision, whereas the Byakugan is like a 3rd person view of the fight, being able to see all around the user. Also, when you said even though a Byakugan-user is receiving the visual information doesn't mean his eyes can process it all, you are incorrect. We see clearly from Neji on several occasions that he has absolutely no trouble registering everything that is going around him.
On the topic of the Byakugan's ability to take in what is around it, what makes you think that the Sharingan is somehow better at recognizing details? How can you even attempt to justify that? The Byakugan can see more than the Sharingan, period. Once more, you appear to be being contrary to disregard a valid argument. What "details" do you think the Byakugan would miss that the Sharingan would catch while scouting?
Please try to act like reasonable people instead of just trying to counter everything we say. If there is something that you clearly weren't right about, just let it go and admit you've been beaten in that regard, because arguing poorly is probably not the best way to look good for the judges.
Debate 2: Sharingan/Byakugan(Continued)
Team 2: Okay so the Byakugan and the Sharingan can both see chakra the extent of which the Byakugan can see is better but for the basic point of actually reading the opponent and when they are gonna use a jutsu is something both doujutsu have the ability to spot. So, in reality the Byakugan has no advantage over the Sharingan based upon that.
So, the next thing you guys spoke of is that of elemental affinity affecting whether or not a Sharingan user can copy a jutsu. But even if thats true (which no where does it say it is) thats once again dependent upon the user and is the users failing not the doujutsu. Also in regards to Kakashi it's really difficult for me to believe that even though he's said to have copied over a 1000 jutsu he can't do a simple fire style technique.
The idea of looking away from an opponents eyes to avoid the technique is completely foolish unless you trained to do it and even more so trying to avoid looking at something is distracting in itself and is very unwise in battle.
So, onto the counter for Sharingan subject again. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that it'll work and that is my point with the whole look at the feet thing. What Guy suggested was unlikely to be able to be done by Kurenai and/or Asuma as Asuma stated so in a pinch which they were they couldn't do it. But if there's no other way what's the harm in trying to do something that will likely save your life. Which is why Guy would bother telling Asuma even if it's unlikely to work.
Now as far as Taijutsu being effective against 3 tomoe users when you talk about people who in actual combat fought a full fledged three tomoe use Killer bee and E the raikage are the ones who stand out but one's a Jinchuuriki of the 8 tails and the other is the Raikage and brother of the 8 tailed jinchuuriki and is as fast as the Fourth hokage. So, look at what you have to be to hit these ninja's and no byakugan ninja is nearly on the kage lvl.
Now back to Rock Lee vs Sasuke for some reason you guys think that just because you say it's done deal that it's a done deal when it clearly is not. We don't know what would have happened and we can speculate all we want but there's not proof of exactly what would happen and your not talking about a fully developed Sharingan. So, your not talking about the doujutsu your talking about the user.
So, okay as far as your stat pool for you the invented Uchiha and Hyuga I hope that you guys realize that overall the Uchiha's stats are better and obviously if the stats of the Uchiha beats the stats of the Hyuga you actually helped our point. It's a shame though that you guys can't accept that the Sharingan has alot more proficient users than the Byakugan and it can't be helped.
Okay so like I said the manifestation of the Sharingan is clearly up to the user. If you always take dangerous missions it's more likely to be a mission that pushes you to the limit and forces you to activate the Sharingan. Which once again makes Obito late manifestation age make sense. It's not rocket science when your life is on the line and the pressure is on your gonna be stressed and likely do what it takes to survive and as far as the whole experience thing with the Sharingan and Byakugan. What difference does it really make with the Byakugan being automatic while the Sharingan takes time. Experience isn't even something that makes a big of a difference when Byakugan when activated automatically has a 360 degree of vision and the only thing you can advance is it's range. While the Sharingan has actual abilities and takes a more active role in situations.
Now when you guys say that details are easily taken in by the Byakugan in comparison to the Sharingans ability to completely take in details you are wrong. Now I've looked at a crowded screen to find one letter in a pile of jumbled words and would pass by it over and over again for one key reason I overlooked a detail and quite simply the byakugan simultaneously see's what's in it's vision and because of that it can be easy to overlook something just like how Kakashi couldn't see all the strikes of the fuuton Rasengan. Which means that if you miss.. say a kunai because there are thousands being thrown in your directions or you fail to notice an somewhat transparent string attached to a trap you die and thats all there is for you. So, don't act as if details aren't important. Noticing that a shadow clone is a shadow clone before some does a unexpected attack on your chin can save your life as Neji had to find out the hard way.
So, I really don't see Byakugan winning this even by your own stats the Hyuga are outclassed by the Uchiha.
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